[.11] Weapon/Armor Duration (split from Packet Color Thread)

Discussion in '{Archived} Alliance Rules 2.0 Playtesting' started by Sage of Legaia, Nov 27, 2018.

  1. Cedric

    Cedric Rogue Marshal

    Muir - We get what...6 silver per player per level per logistics? What else will we pay that on? We need sinks otherwise we just get gold and trade it around ourselves for formal scrolls pushing little piles of paper and coin around but nothing ever leaving. That creates the terrible inflation we see now where somone can just throw a plat at a bartender for a keg of beer in SF because they can.
  2. Muir

    Muir Fighter

    Treasure policy gets that. It is not distributed anywhere remotely close to evenly, nor is it dropped as straight coin.

    Edit: I agree that we have an issue with inflation, but I think we differ on causes and solutions.

    I see the cause as level-based treasure policy in a game where there is no level cap and characters rarely permanently die, meaning the money supply will always be growing.

    As a solution, I believe we need more compelling ways to spend that coin to influence in-game events. Adding what amounts to a 'playing the game' tax which is deeply regressive due to the ease with which longer-term players access magic items compared to relatively new PCs seems like a recipe for not having new PCs, rather than adding any compelling interest.
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018
  3. Draven

    Draven Count Seattle Staff Marshal

    Dystopia Rising has a significantly different culture than Alliance. Heck, Alliance has a significantly different culture depending on what chapter you’re in (even if we don’t talk about that...which we should).

    Trying to improve (or at least somewhat standardize) our economy would require a lot of things to be re-tooled.

    -Craftsman: This is a way to create systematic wealth out of literally nothing, which causes coin to be inherently worth less. This is further exacerbated by the presence of Sylvanborn, with their 50% discount to the skill.

    -Lack of incentive to spend coin on things that would funnel that coin back to the game. While some players enjoy RP elements to buy, many don’t (such as myself). Missed opportunity: not including a coin-cost that could be spent instead for skill sellbacks, spell store fills, and precasts defenses.

    -Components/Rituals. These things massively affect an economy, but are definitely worth different amounts in various chapters. This plays to the favor of wealthy traveling characters who want to find a place to buy their cheap Regen ritual, while simultaneously rubbing their out-of-chapter wealth in the face of local players. And while rituals are locked to specific chapters, components aren’t. That can be a major vulnerability to low-level campaigns that find themselves visited by high-level “squeezed” characters, who might find their build reduced, but definitely not their wallets. And what need do low-level campaigns have of rituals, anyways, when there isn’t anyone who’ll be able to cast them (heck, read them) for years?

    There’s other things, too, but yeah, there’d have to be a lot of objective-setting and modification. No doubt the results would make some people upset, too.
    DiscOH likes this.
  4. Tantarus

    Tantarus Squire

    Now this is a pay for power I can get behind... with ig money.
    DiscOH likes this.
  5. Draven

    Draven Count Seattle Staff Marshal

    It’s even thematically appropriate. You paid someone passing through to buy some defenses, or to dump some magic into your item, or to “retrain you.”
    DiscOH likes this.
  6. mikestrauss

    mikestrauss Squire

    I don't want to come off as caustic, but I believe you are speaking from a position of privilege. Each of these solutions you present is effectively either a level check or a wealth check (which is essentially a level check). Rituals are level checks and wealth checks. Ward spell is a level check (or a wealth check).

    In essence, you are saying that once you reach a certain character / wealth level, you can ignore the really frustrating parts of the game. That is why I call item removal bad customer service. It is basically a tax on low level / poor characters and meaningless to high level / rich characters. That directly harms the newest members of our society and perpetuates the Old Boy's Club problem.

    AKracht, Muir and Feldor like this.
  7. mikestrauss

    mikestrauss Squire

    I discussed this topic with a friend who doesn't play the game and he suggested something that I think should be the Alliance philosophy about items.

    -Staple items should be assured. Special items should have limited duration / be vulnerable to destruction.

    He is right. And sadly, the exact opposite is currently true. New players have a single weapon and armor and are in constant fear of either being destroyed or lost. Long term players have magic items that are all but invulnerable and never leave their hands.

    Imagine how much more friendly our system would be to starting players if it was impossible for their mundane equipment to be permanently lost or destroyed. A low level fighter might be disarmed for a fight, but could fully return to action next battle. A low level archer could actually fight an entire weekend, instead of running out of arrows after the first battle. A low level mage would never have to fear that their spell book could be lost or stolen.

    At the same time, I also think the game would be improved if high level players actually had to worry about losing magic items. One good step towards this would be making more magic items single use. But it would also be good if they generally had shorter durations and if magic items were not automatically indestructible. This would put a higher premium on skills. Hopefully it would also open up design space for more one-shot or short duration production point items that gave various types of combat boosts.

    I know I am veering off topic, but I think the entire idea that mundane core equipment should be highly vulnerable or have expiration dates of any kind is detrimental to the growth of our game.

    DiscOH, JeffL and Muir like this.
  8. Ken

    Ken Artisan Alliance Logistics

    Generalize refit to repair. Shattered armor/weapon/focus items can be repaired in the field, though a shattered armor will still need to be refit following repair. Magic items can be repaired if shattered but cost a production consumable (probably made by blacksmiths) to make the rituals work again - rune repair paste or something. Maybe let Mend repair shattered items (but still need the paste for rits).

    Taxes the rich, but doesn't super punish the newb who just got their first magic weapon and encountered a shattering monster.
    Bruvah M. and mikestrauss like this.
  9. Muir

    Muir Fighter

    As I said earlier, it's essentially regressive. Loss of equipment only really hurts the newer players, as longer-term players have both the knowledge that countering removal is necessary and the resources to get those counters. Over time, this builds power inequality as resources are drained from the lower level characters just to keep playing while freed of that drain higher level characters are able to spend less and thus have greater resources to gain more powerful gear.

    That, by the way, is where we are now and part of why 2.0 has such large itemization rewrites.
    mikestrauss likes this.
  10. Draven

    Draven Count Seattle Staff Marshal

    You can assume I’d be speaking from a position of privilege, but you’d be wrong. Frankly, that assumption is accustory as all get out, and offensive. Keep your assumptions about my “privilege” to yourself, thanks.

    While I do benefit from some indestructible items, those were either earned with IG accomplishment or OOG effort spent volunteering significant amounts of my time on the game.

    IG accomplishment is a part of the game. If that ever goes away, that’s terrible.

    Also, I don’t have a Regen. Working on that. Because sometimes people should work for things.
    Tantarus likes this.
  11. Draven

    Draven Count Seattle Staff Marshal

    Also, what new players “live in constant fear” of having their weapons or armor shattered? Certainly not the ones in the PNW, where we have incredible communities towards new folks that certainly help them out when they’re in a jam.

    I request you provide actual examples of current communities that do not help new characters, if you’re going to make such dramatic descriptions of the social environment.
    Cedric likes this.
  12. Muir

    Muir Fighter

    I think we've been 'round about this before, but much like Denver's local call on weapon expiry, a local playerbase deciding (or being culturally pressured) to ameliorate the impact of the systemic negatives does not change the existence of said systemic negatives.

    If the system does not work in a vacuum, then we still have room to ask why those negative aspects are good for the game, if they are.
    mikestrauss likes this.
  13. Draven

    Draven Count Seattle Staff Marshal

    Sure, but I don’t oppose Denver’s choice about expiring items, because I think item loss actually does improve the economy and the Alliance goal of social reliance. I oppose them having what amounts to a LCO treasure policy that potentially affects the Alliance at a national level.

    If their idea was implemented at the national level, my opposition would immediately cease, because it would be nationally consistent. :)
    Cedric likes this.
  14. Alavatar

    Alavatar Baron

    I believe looking at LARP systems in a vacuum is disingenuous to the player community. The human interaction, and the consequences of the system on the community, is an integral aspect of the game.
    Sage of Legaia, Inaryn and Draven like this.
  15. mikestrauss

    mikestrauss Squire

    That is at least partially true, but as many have pointed out over the years, the player community is far from homogeneous. Cultures differ by coast, by chapter, and even by teams within a chapter. You can't assume item generosity is assured. It certainly didn't exist in my home chapter for the first decade or so.

    Also, even if it does exist, it still doesn't mean that item removal ceases to be a customer service issue. In my experience, both as a new player, and spending time with new players, new players don't like to feel like charity cases. Telling them that the only solution to losing a sword is either spend money they haven't earned yet (haven't really even had a meaningful opportunity to earn) or beg for charity, isn't a good way to get them to want to return to the game. It can be especially galling when they see older players who clearly enjoy complete immunity to that part of the game.

    I challenge anyone to provide a convincing argument that weapon / armor duration or any other type of item removal is even close to even on which players are most harmed by it. Because right now I believe that "tax on new players" is by far the most accurate description.

    Shades, Feldor and AKracht like this.
  16. Draven

    Draven Count Seattle Staff Marshal

    Challenge accepted.

    There are certain social aspects that need to occur in order for a chapter to be successful and sustaining in order for the chapter to continue. As a New Player Representative for Seattle for somewhere between four and five years, I’ve been able to see our chapter become one that is absolutely flush in new blood, and man is that awesome.

    One of those social aspects is that your new players need to matter to your Old Guard. Otherwise, your retention will suck. If your retention sucks, you will inevitably die to attrition as Real Life happens to your veterans.

    Another aspect of a chapter’s survival is that your Plot team needs to be reasonable in how it delivers challenges to your players. If it’s shattering/KO’ing lowbies willy nilly, it’s going to make the game less fun or completely unfun, especially if Plot is preventing or otherwise hindering Solutions from being available.

    Lastly, it’s important to assume that the way you want to play a game doesn’t mean everyone wants to play the game that way. You might not want to be a charity case, other players might appreciate a helping hand or a proactively supportive community that pays it forward. Assuming your experience must be the same for everyone else is pretty much a terrible approach for anyone who wants to help new players; you need to listen to them, provide them options, and try to get clues as to what they’re looking for -even if they aren’t sure what that is or if they don’t know if they’ll be judged for saying it.-

    Being a fantastically supportive and charitable community has not only been wildly successful in the PNW, it’s a core aspect of what we are that I am incredibly proud of.
  17. mikestrauss

    mikestrauss Squire

    Beautiful sentiment, but it doesn't even vaguely answer my question. How is item removal in any way comparable in its impact on high and low level players?

    It seems pretty much like a flat tax to me, in which low level players suffer much more notably than high level players. And you didn't address that at all.

    AKracht likes this.
  18. Draven

    Draven Count Seattle Staff Marshal

    You seem to have missed the remarks regarding the need for goals and accomplishments in order to have advantages. I invite you to review those, because I’m not interested in repeating myself to you.

    (Also, you never did answer my own challenge of an actual current example of a chapter that is providing an environment in which new players are...how did you put it...wrought in suffering from the terrible existence of Shatter? Why in the world should I be so endeavored to answer your questions to your satisfaction, when you aren’t equally committed to reciprocate?)
  19. Feldor

    Feldor Artisan

    I guess, I can remember (I think it was an HQ event, not my current home chapter) my 2nd or 3rd event, where at one point in the battle, they'd shattered everyone on the field's weapon except those swinging under the monster's threshold and those people with magic swords (back when magic swords were visibly magic). I and a couple others ended up handing our weapons to the higher level fighters so they could fight things while we watched. It was not a fun experience. That shatter experience and monsters that required magic to hit made it clear to me that the game was very different for those with wealth and those without.

    I mean, I like that wealth and rewards are earned, and think those should exist. Rewards are good. I just don't like the "you don't get to play unless you have this much gold" aspect of the current shatter. To be fair, you could also fix this experience by just giving new players rendered starting equipment.
    Gilwing and mikestrauss like this.
  20. Draven

    Draven Count Seattle Staff Marshal

    I have never once seen someone not be able to play because of Shatter. People loan out extra weapons, which can be hectic and appropriately chaotic when you’re trying to toss your buddy a short sword while trying not to get mauled to death.

    I have definitely seen people be unable to play because of Drain/Paralysis/Sleep/Wither.

    So, if we want to ensure 100% “Can Engage All The Time,” then we need to stop pretending the problem is Shatter, cuz it sure as heck ain’t.

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