What nobility wears - aka who doesn't have *#&# all over

Wraith

Newbie
I occasionally miss the SCA. Then I remember how hard heavy list was on my joints. :D

I actually wish our combat system felt more like theirs, though. Speed cheesing and ultralights have nothing on a good wrap shot or a shield wall for fun.
 

ChrioLA

Newbie
Subdivision? you mean Kingdom?...Calontir formerly of the outlands. I do enjoy fighting heavy. Wrap shots are good but nothing says loving like a nice head shot from someone who's been calling Light. SCA/Belegarth/Dag have some really great physical aspects to thier game, Amtgard offers alot more skill and technical knowledge on shots...its almost a science to be honest. I enjoy alliance however for the role-play and story part of the game.
 
Maybe that's a location particular thing with Amtgard in the location where you played. I've seen a number of good Amtgard fighters, and a few that knew more names of shots/armor pieces/tactics then I did, but I would never say in general that there is more skill/knowledge shown by any Amtgard group I've ever seen. (And I mean that as an apples to apples comparison of fighting skill, I have seen decent Alliance fighters get beaten by decent Amtgards fighters at an Amtgard game, but the reverse is also true).That's not been my experience with SCA players; I would say that in general that SCAdians are more knowledgeable. I don't think you can really ever make a really good cross-system comparison of fighting skill though, the systems emphasize different techniques and tactics that just don't translate. It'd be like comparing soccer to kickball. Balls, running, and kicking are involved, but it's not the same deal. Skill in one helps in the other, but no guarantees you'll be good at (or enjoy playing) both.
 

Unsure

Artisan
I would have to agree with this statement. I was in Amtgard for 14 years. From a very combat oreinted chapter as well. In Amtgard generally it's a one or two shot kills. In Alliance it's usually 10 or more shots that kill. This changes the way you swing and the stategies of how you attack. For example In Amtgard if I slightly over extend myself for hitting my opponent generally he or she can't take the hit and still hit me back back because he or she will be dead or their sword arms will be dead and can't swing back. In Alliance with the same situation the NPC will just take the hit and swing back with more damage. Considering most of the time I have played Alliance, I've fought monsters with way more body and armor then myself so using the above amtgard stategy wouldn't be wise. I would simply die very quickly.

In order for anyone to succeed in one or the other system then you have to addapt your fighting style and tactics to each system's rules for combat.

Generally if by the unlikley chance two opponents fight each other that have identical stats then I would agree that the Amtgarder wins over an Alliance fighter most of the time. But keep in mind that Alliance is way more RP friendly then Amtgard. And Amtgard is way more combat friendly then Alliance; thuus the primary focus of each player will be in different areas, because of this fundemental difference in game mechanics.

In other words apples and oranges.
B~>
 
ChrioLA said:
Subdivision? you mean Kingdom?...Calontir formerly of the outlands. I do enjoy fighting heavy. Wrap shots are good but nothing says loving like a nice head shot from someone who's been calling Light. SCA/Belegarth/Dag have some really great physical aspects to thier game, Amtgard offers alot more skill and technical knowledge on shots...its almost a science to be honest. I enjoy alliance however for the role-play and story part of the game.
Oui that is what I meant.. Kingdom. Sorry Subdivision is a term I am customed to using with Adria.
 

ChrioLA

Newbie
Unsure, what Park did you / do you play at ?

my thoughts were if you took a guy with 8 orders of the warrior or even warlord they'd mop the floor up. Even in a single shot game warlords have to occasionally fight a monster with 10pts of sectional invuln, if they were fighting for say the sword of flame and it was a dragon that had it (ie during reign if a monarch was dishing out relics)
 

Unsure

Artisan
The Kingdom of Blackspire. Which is in Portland OR. Most of the games are almost always tournament or basic no class battle games; like ditches, two man teams or kill your killer. In which case armor, magic and invulnerablities don't count.

I see what your saying about fighting something or somone that can take more then a few shots. 90% of the game that I have played in Amtgard were non class battle games and essentially this is where ones fighting style comes from. Since Alliance is almost always in game then the fighting style will relflect in game rules and game mechanics. Alliance players won't so haphazardly attack a monster considering that death in Alliance can be permanent and Amtgard is not. In Amtgard you just have to wait for a five minute death count and thats it. Death is never perminent in Amtgard.

Also in Amtgard generally you don't have to fight waves of NPC's coming at you. Just what and who is in front of you. Even then a few shots on those folks and you won't have to worry about until next round. In Alliance there is an atrition where you have to conserve and preserve what you have to survive the onslaught. If you were to act as agressively in alliance then you wouldn't last as long because you would be over extending yourself and taking shots here and there. Over a period of time you will have used up all your armor, potions, scrolls, etc. from all the little mistakes of acting too agressively.

B~>
 

Wraith

Newbie
ChrioLA said:
Subdivision? you mean Kingdom?...Calontir formerly of the outlands. I do enjoy fighting heavy. Wrap shots are good but nothing says loving like a nice head shot from someone who's been calling Light. SCA/Belegarth/Dag have some really great physical aspects to thier game, Amtgard offers alot more skill and technical knowledge on shots...its almost a science to be honest. I enjoy alliance however for the role-play and story part of the game.
Woot Calontir. I miss the shield wall something fierce. Also getting my *** handed to me on a regular basis by Fyrdmen.

Alliance combat is deeply unsatisfying to me these days, given that it favors speed over everything so heavily, even at the expense of it's own rules. All in-game and out of game improvement is focused on finding ways for people to carry less weight of armor and swing lighter weapons while keeping the same game statistics. Sure, in theory two people of similar skill with the same card should be roughly of the same effectiveness. That's the core theory of our game. But give one an armor physrep and standard PVC weapons, and the other arcane and some ultralights, and the battle's going to be one-sided nine times out of ten.

It isn't even a matter of any actual skill at arms, just a weapon that can be swung faster without hitting 'too hard', and (assuming anyone's actually requiring the combatants to hold to the same rules as everyone else) learning to speak faster on your damage calls.

Body Points as an abstract system that actually mean nothing are another peeve, but will need a longer post later. :)
 
Are you saying that in other systems there are NOT oog technology for the weapons/armor that would improve or degrade advantages?

Also we have a crap ton of magic between spells and rituals. You can often win many battles without even swinging anything.
 

Wraith

Newbie
Dreamingfurther said:
Are you saying that in other systems there are NOT oog technology for the weapons/armor that would improve or degrade advantages?
I certainly can't say that, but it really bothers me more given our emphasis on 'Being all you can't be'. As I've had pointed out to me, there are a number of people who use ultralights simply because they can't comfortably fight with full-weight weapons due to wrist problems. That's a great reason. I like them for polearms as well, because they are a lot less whippy, and the weight savings isn't that great. I suppose it all boils down to needing marshals and players to be just as anal about incants on the melee folks as we all are on casters. Someone not finishing their damage call before the weapon hits? Call them on it. Eventually combat will slow back down a bit and we'll see more emphasis on shot placement and what's on the card rather than how fast one can bend one's elbow. :D

Also we have a crap ton of magic between spells and rituals. You can often win many battles without even swinging anything.
Yeah, magic is awesome, and I'm more than happy to see it end fights. So long as casters making kills doesn't just lead to monsters mysteriously getting more and more resists, returns, and dodges. :) The arcane armor comparison above isn't really valid because it is a ritual effect that is flat out awesome.
 

markusdark

Knight
Dreamingfurther said:
Are you saying that in other systems there are NOT oog technology for the weapons/armor that would improve or degrade advantages?
Yes, there are systems that promote advantage of player skill and ability over that of the latest and greatest technology of weapon/costume crafting. Of course that, in part, removes the 'Be all that you CAN'T be' but just like a mage is only as good as his throwing arm and aim, so would a person's melee abilities only be as good as his practiced sword arm. If it only takes one hit for a character to become disabled, it is no longer about how quickly you can put the hit into your target but how can you put one into them without them also putting one into you. And, IMO, those are the much more adrenalin/fun systems.
 
well, all I have to say is that I find this thread very amusing considering that it was less than a week ago how some other folks were pointing out to me on another thread how "player skill" can do so much to compensate for stats or whatnot.

And for the record I really just can't buy the argument that our system marginalizes player skill. Because from what I've seen while weapon technology and stats definitely help, somehow it seems like the folks that really train themselves and are just dam good at fighting the way they need to have a distinct advantage. I've been working on my rouge game for 3 or 4 months now since the change and going adept, and I'm constantly amazed and impressed how the guys who have been rouging for years just "know" how to get in the right place at the right time and really place their shots. But that's just one small point.

Our rules self proclaim that they set out to create a mix between player skill and character stats. This mix also includes player provided reps and technology and character found magic and rituals. I could be wrong, but personally I think that the system does a pretty good job of mixing and melding those so that you really need to do your work on both sides of the spectrum to really "rule the field" or come out on top so to speak.

Should we be all one or the other? I duno, and personally I'm not going to claim that either an all OOG bent or an all IG bent is better or even preferable than the other. And as a small side point I think even the fact we mostly all dress up or paint up and run around making cool stories fills the "be all you can't be" ticket pretty well. ;)
 

markusdark

Knight
I've never said that the rule set doesn't help try and get those who aren't physically able to be great warriors or sneaky assassins to get to a level of doing that nor does it exactly punish those that are capable. In addition, weapon tech only goes so far without the training of the player on it. However, IMO, any game where one or two low level spells can completely neutralize any fighting skill a player has does nothing to really instill the development of melee skills. Nor does a system where holding a weapon to a victim's throat threatening to kill them only makes the 'heroes' charge them faster. Combat becomes almost all offence with a flurry of quick shot blows and very little thought towards blocking or avoiding blows. In other words, the character is more focused on hitting than on being hit (except in the case of 'one shot' attacks such as death spells). More like a piranah feeding frenzy than martial combat - but again, that's just my opinion.
 

ChrioLA

Newbie
I cant truly emphasize the skill level of an Amtgard warlord. Sir Leif (well, formerly sir leif) is a jedi he blocks the tip of your weapon with his blade and then you look in amazement and he's already behind you, and you've been stabbed, slashed or whatever else half a dozen times in the span of a 3-5 second period. Sir Thor, Sir Spyn, Sir Brennon and Sir Leif are not human in thier ability.

skill is what determines a fight there...not weapon tech unless your a tourney fighter..and even then it helps some but skill rules the field. Sir Spyn is still a god with a 2lbs sword just as much as he is with an ultra light, min maxed core weapon.

personally, I use a sword from Warlord Sports.

A best friend of mine in Canada plays that other game who alliance use to be with..but goes to Amtgard to increase his stick for when he's monstering at his chapter. Kevin Tjia.
 

Wraith

Newbie
markusdark said:
I've never said that the rule set doesn't help try and get those who aren't physically able to be great warriors or sneaky assassins to get to a level of doing that nor does it exactly punish those that are capable. In addition, weapon tech only goes so far without the training of the player on it. However, IMO, any game where one or two low level spells can completely neutralize any fighting skill a player has does nothing to really instill the development of melee skills. Nor does a system where holding a weapon to a victim's throat threatening to kill them only makes the 'heroes' charge them faster. Combat becomes almost all offence with a flurry of quick shot blows and very little thought towards blocking or avoiding blows. In other words, the character is more focused on hitting than on being hit (except in the case of 'one shot' attacks such as death spells). More like a piranah feeding frenzy than martial combat - but again, that's just my opinion.

That's it right there. It isn't really the tech that's the problem, it's the system focusing all on speed. Body is utterly abstract, as you are just as capable at 1 body as at over 9000 body. If you go down, you are going to get right back up after a single 1st level spell, so there is no incentive to fight cautiously. Rather, the technique is to spam in as much damage as possible until you get clipped, knowing that you'll be right back up.
 
I'm just not certain where you guys play, but I can't agree that combat is only all offense. However it is true that we play a hit point system. And also realize that our "combat" is meant to be representational. Now I'm all for RP'ing combat damage and the like, and some of my favorite combat moments have been when people do RP that. But honestly I don't think its really all that fair to complain that our system is not "accurate" or "realistic" combat, when it does not set itself out to be such. It's meant to be representational. Its a fantasy game with a hit point system, we don't actually hurt each other and the way our rejuvenation or healing is set up its not hard to fully re-set yourself.

I do have to point out though that I don't understand what the problem with speed is, when ChrioLA here is touting how the best Amtgard warriors he knows can do their thing in seconds flat, but perhaps this is mixing arguments here. Personally the up down up down flow of combat is something that I think is both fun and somewhat of a strength of the combat system in the alliance game. Its not all or nothing, the bbg can roll through a group or two, move on and let the healers put people back on their feet so that both parties can have the fun of doing it again.

If you don't like that style of game... well that's a different game, which is fine too. I guess I'm not really seeing the "problem" here, but I could be missing something.
 

Unsure

Artisan
[quote/]If you go down, you are going to get right back up after a single 1st level spell, so there is no incentive to fight cautiously. Rather, the technique is to spam in as much damage as possible until you get clipped, knowing that you'll be right back up.[/quote]

This is assuming that someone is there to bring you said 1st level spell.

B~>
 
I've never played Amtgard and have only heard small bits other than in this thread. This is what I'm getting out of this.

Amtgard - The player must actually have skill with a weapon to succeed in battle.

Alliance - The character has fighting skills that allow an advantage in combat. If the player is skilled then s/he obviously has more of an advantage.

It seems to me that Alliance lets you play a character with different skills than your own whereas in Amtgard you only have your own real-life skills.
 

Unsure

Artisan
In most games that you play in Amtgard- yes. But like Alliance it has a magic system that is heavily favored over non-magic classes. A third level spell can kill you instantly even if you had alot of stick skill. But like I said those games are maybe 1/10th of the actual gameplay. Most of the time it's no magic or in game skills involved it's just one big fight.

If by chance an Amtgarder does get transplanted to Alliance then his stick skill will help, but won't be as big an advantage as you might think. You can still fight an NPC with way more body and a heavier swing. If by the unlikely chance there is some PC on PC action then It really boils down who has the most build, and magic items they can use. For a simplified example if you took someone with an arcane armor of 22 points and a +4 magic sword with 7 weapon profs. Versus an Amtgarder with 10 points of real armor regular sword with +2 weapon profs. The odss are that the Alliance guy will mostl ikley win because the Amtgarder has to hit their opponent 8-9 times to win where as the Alliance guy has to only hit him a few times to win. Thats a 9-1 odds against the amtgarder. I'm not saying it can't be done just that it's very hard to over come even with alot of stick skill.

B~>
 
You know, its funny to hear folks go on and on about how the magic in the game "so over powers" the fighting in it. But if you actually really take a good look at how many high high level characters and longtime players have built their characters you'd be surprised how fighter skill heavy people will build their characters. The other huge downside to magic is just that it runs out, you can swing your weapon profs or backstabs all day.

For your second point there Unsure I'd just say that really Alliance has just a lot "more" than just swinging pipe to be "good" or "powerful" in the game. And just a small point, you can't actually have a +4 sword... Rituals have limits, and hugest casters and most powerful fighters only get that way with how they chose to spend their build. Basically stick skill isn't the only thing that will favor people in fights. Like I said its a combination of OOG skill, and IG stuff and stat card... Still not really seeing the problem here, because honestly that's what the Alliance rules sets itself out to do.

I mean if your not the biggest fan of the system that works like that I can understand or even dig that. But that is the way alliance is "meant" to work... And it goes both ways, someone who is amazing in Alliance I'm sure could not walk into an amtgard game or sca tournament and clear field because those games just work differently. I mean, everyone enjoys their own flavor of cake right?
 
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