[0.9] Paragon Paths
- Thread starter Polare
- Start date
Alavatar: Warsmith - No Fault found
Me: Warsmith - Huge Fault found!
Speaking of this, Blacksmithing was moved from Trades and Crafts to Fighting Skills in v2. Would this disqualify it as a prerequisite for Warsmith, as it is no longer listed under that skill category?
Tulbor
Artisan
Seems, just like alchemy, its still a trades and craft skill, just one that counts towards fighting skills
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I have no concerns regarding this, so long as adequate language to define a Crafting skill is provided. In 1.3 there is a section of skills defined as Trades and Crafts. In v2, Blacksmithing, Create Scroll and Create Trap have all been migrated to count as Fighting, Scholarly (Celestial) and Rogue skills, respectively. If certain skills in v2 are considered to qualify as multiple categories of skill, then they should be clearly identified as such.
Tulbor
Artisan
but Alchemy is still in that section?
To the best of my knowledge, a fully updated skill purchasing chart has not been made available in section 5.4 of v2. Only a Fighting Skills and a Rogue Skills chart have been provided. Hearty as a single line chart has also been provided, but is not listed in section 5.4. Blacksmithing is listed as a Fighting Skill in these charts, as is Create Trap listed as a Rogue Skill. A Scholarly Skills chart does not appear to be provided, however Wand Changes in section 4.5 lists Create Scroll in a subgroup used to define what are considered Celestial Scholarly Skills for the purposes of wand calculations. I have seen no mention of Alchemy being applied to a class' skill tree. If it has not been moved, then it would stand to reason that it would remain in its original chart from 1.3
EDIT: I lied, Alchemy also appears in the Rogue Skills section in the 0.9 document.
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I believe the trades and crafts section, and crafting skills to meet Paragon requirements are two different things, though as this is all only written by ARC, only they would be able to answer for sure their intention.
@Polare The paragon requirement for what does and does not constitute a crafting skill are not defined. Does anything that produces production points qualify? Does the craftsman skill qualify? What is the intention for the crafting based paragon packages, and can that be clarified in either the paragon information supplement, or in the .9 rule set document.
@Polare The paragon requirement for what does and does not constitute a crafting skill are not defined. Does anything that produces production points qualify? Does the craftsman skill qualify? What is the intention for the crafting based paragon packages, and can that be clarified in either the paragon information supplement, or in the .9 rule set document.
Good evening folks!
We appreciate the breadth of constructive feedback folks are posting up and will consider it closely. We're also working to clarify where questions arise.
One specific item that we'd like to make clear: We do not intend any combination which allows infinite Body Point healing via combat abilities, at least for PCs (Plot can do whatever they want, and non-combat abilities may get around this in the future). In that vein, we'd like to make 3 clarifications/tweaks to the Paragon Paths (I'll upload an updated spreadsheet with these changes tomorrow):
Assassin:
1. Remove the 2nd level Active Ability.
2. Add the following 1st level Active Ability:
Spellblade:
Replace the 2nd level Active Ability with the following:
Totemic:
Replace the 2nd level Active Ability with the following:
Note that Weapon qualifier attacks can never give a beneficial effect in the existing rules, and this has not changed in 2.0.
Finally, to help provide clarity in a couple of areas, we'll add these clarifications to the Playtest Packet:
Or, to give another example, let's say I'm a 1st-tier Assassin with a pocketful of Cure Light elixirs. I have 4 Backstabs. My Assassin training has made me powerful enough to consume a Cure Light elixir in my pocket to swing "5 Poison Healing" from behind (once, then I need to meditate), but my Backstabs don't help because it's a "coating" with a set numeric value.
Similarly, if I have a sword with a Potion Coating ritual, I can charge it up with an 8th level Cure Wounds potion (for 40 points), but even if I use a mighty 100 point Slay with it I still only swing "40 Spell Healing" when I trigger it (bummer, probably shouldn't have used that Slay!).
Finally, I'm that same Assassin from before but I've advanced to the 5th tier Assassin ability. My abilities to transmute and consume alchemies has grown so powerful that I can sneak up on someone from behind and let the Flame Blast Globe in my pocket flow up through my arm to channel its power into my enemies, swinging "20 Elemental Flame!" Pretty hot! My Backstabs count for this, since the 5th tier Assassin ability explicitly says that they do (for a Blast Globe only).
Thank you,
Bryan Gregory
ARC Chair
We appreciate the breadth of constructive feedback folks are posting up and will consider it closely. We're also working to clarify where questions arise.
One specific item that we'd like to make clear: We do not intend any combination which allows infinite Body Point healing via combat abilities, at least for PCs (Plot can do whatever they want, and non-combat abilities may get around this in the future). In that vein, we'd like to make 3 clarifications/tweaks to the Paragon Paths (I'll upload an updated spreadsheet with these changes tomorrow):
Assassin:
1. Remove the 2nd level Active Ability.
2. Add the following 1st level Active Ability:
3. Replace the 5th level Passive Ability regarding Blast Globes and replace it with the following Active Ability:
Spellblade:
Replace the 2nd level Active Ability with the following:
Totemic:
Replace the 2nd level Active Ability with the following:
Note that Weapon qualifier attacks can never give a beneficial effect in the existing rules, and this has not changed in 2.0.
Finally, to help provide clarity in a couple of areas, we'll add these clarifications to the Playtest Packet:
Or, to give another example, let's say I'm a 1st-tier Assassin with a pocketful of Cure Light elixirs. I have 4 Backstabs. My Assassin training has made me powerful enough to consume a Cure Light elixir in my pocket to swing "5 Poison Healing" from behind (once, then I need to meditate), but my Backstabs don't help because it's a "coating" with a set numeric value.
Similarly, if I have a sword with a Potion Coating ritual, I can charge it up with an 8th level Cure Wounds potion (for 40 points), but even if I use a mighty 100 point Slay with it I still only swing "40 Spell Healing" when I trigger it (bummer, probably shouldn't have used that Slay!).
Finally, I'm that same Assassin from before but I've advanced to the 5th tier Assassin ability. My abilities to transmute and consume alchemies has grown so powerful that I can sneak up on someone from behind and let the Flame Blast Globe in my pocket flow up through my arm to channel its power into my enemies, swinging "20 Elemental Flame!" Pretty hot! My Backstabs count for this, since the 5th tier Assassin ability explicitly says that they do (for a Blast Globe only).
Thank you,
Bryan Gregory
ARC Chair
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Alavatar
Baron
For Paragon Paths that produce a Spell or other Magical Effect when the base concept is not required to know magic, what School does the Spell or Magical Effect have?
Examples:
Some Paragon Path Abilities grant reactive effects "When affected by X, also take Y (typically 5 Spell Healing or whatever) as if touchcast and accepted" or "When affected by X, may immediately cast Y on another character by touchcast". Are any of these reactive effects capable of being absorbed by Spell Store or other appropriate ritual?
Examples:
- Assassin Level 3 Passive Ability to take a Spell Cure Wounds 5 as if touch cast and accepted
- Chemist Level 5 Per-Day Ability Spellcraft Poison Trigger and Poison Cache
- Defender Level 1 Per-Day 1/d 30 Spell Mend Armor by touchcast
- Defender Level 2 Active Ability to swing Spell Bind <legs> by weapon
- Defender Level 2 Per-Day Ability 2/d Arcane Fortress by touchcast
- Disabler Level 5 Per-Day Ability Instant Trap ritual effect
- Duelist Level 1 Per-Day Ability 1/d Spell Bind by weapon
- Ravager Level 1 Active Ability Arcane Weakness
- Ravager Level 2 Passive Ability 5 Arcane Healing
- Ravager Level 2 Active Ability Arcane Silence
- Ravager Level 3 Active Ability Arcane Destruction
- Sniper Level 2 Active Ability Arcane Slow
- Sniper Level 3 Per-Day Ability 3/d Spell Bind by ranged weapon
- Sniper Level 4 Per-Day Ability 1/d Spell Wall of Force
- Warleader Level 2 Active Ability Recharge Prowess effect
- Warleader Level 3 Active Ability Raging Blow effect
- Warsmith Level 3 Per-Day Ability Shatter 1/d (when used as a Spell)
- Warsmith Level 5 Per-Day Ability 1/d Spellcrafted effects
Some Paragon Path Abilities grant reactive effects "When affected by X, also take Y (typically 5 Spell Healing or whatever) as if touchcast and accepted" or "When affected by X, may immediately cast Y on another character by touchcast". Are any of these reactive effects capable of being absorbed by Spell Store or other appropriate ritual?
mikestrauss
Squire
Not all effects have a school, even if they deliver a named spell effect. For example, the database standard hag produces an Arcane (or maybe magic, can't quite remember) Sleep effect 1/day (maybe 2/day, it has been a while). That effect is neither earth nor celestial. Unless stated otherwise, earth and celestial only apply to spells that are memorized traditionally or magic items that are crafted traditionally (possibly by infusing them with a spell). There is nothing stopping the rules writers from defining these effects as earth or celestial, but if they don't, then they simply don't have a school (even in cases where, per normal rules, the spell effect can only be produced by one of the two schools).
It is important to point out that while a spell effect might not be associated with a school, it always is associated with an effect group. Thus, a necromantic effect is still necromantic, even if the effect isn't earth.
I suspect you are asking the question for biata and barbarian players. The short answer is, they can mechanically use these effects with no consequences. However, for the effects that are normally only available as celestial, cultural stigma is also in play and they should probably avoid using them (even if they learn them).
-MS
It is important to point out that while a spell effect might not be associated with a school, it always is associated with an effect group. Thus, a necromantic effect is still necromantic, even if the effect isn't earth.
I suspect you are asking the question for biata and barbarian players. The short answer is, they can mechanically use these effects with no consequences. However, for the effects that are normally only available as celestial, cultural stigma is also in play and they should probably avoid using them (even if they learn them).
-MS
Alavatar
Baron
Sorry, I meant Aspect (Celestial vs. Earth), not School.
I am asking the question for 2 reasons: Racial / Cultural Stigmas, and Rituals.
If something is providing a Ritual Effect or otherwise Magical Effect that lasts longer than Instantenous then, in theory, a Destroy Magic would remove it. However, Destroy Magic only affects one Aspect when it resolves so the resulting abilities that provide a Ritual Effect or Magical Effect should have a designated Aspect. Secondly, Spell Store is an Aspected ritual that can Absorb spell effects of the same Aspect that are touch-cast onto the character/item.
I am asking the question for 2 reasons: Racial / Cultural Stigmas, and Rituals.
If something is providing a Ritual Effect or otherwise Magical Effect that lasts longer than Instantenous then, in theory, a Destroy Magic would remove it. However, Destroy Magic only affects one Aspect when it resolves so the resulting abilities that provide a Ritual Effect or Magical Effect should have a designated Aspect. Secondly, Spell Store is an Aspected ritual that can Absorb spell effects of the same Aspect that are touch-cast onto the character/item.
KyleSchmelz
Fighter
I was wondering the same with regards to Spellcrafted effects, such as the Spirit Link on the Steelsoul's bonded weapon. That one is a Celestial-specific paragon path so it would presumably be Celestial, but it's not explicitly stated and there are other cases that are less clear. Just for the sake of Destroy Magic, I think the aspect (Earth/Celestial/Necromantic) should be stated explicitly for any Spellcrafted effects.
See post below
Posting off my phone is weird. What I meant was ARC as the authors should define that all aspected rituals can be aspected by the choice of the player when the ritual effect has a choice.
mikestrauss
Squire
Aspect or school, the answer is the same. Not all effects that duplicate spells have an aspect (again, see my Hag example). I will admit that certain effects in that list probably should have aspect designated (specifically the ritual effects), but non-aspected seems fine for the rest.
-MS
I went through most of the Paragon Paths and tried to get a rough estimate of how much build I though that each ability would be worth. For the most part, each Paragon Path came in a bit over 100 build for all five levels. A few were lower, and one or two were much higher.
A few general notes.
There are a lot of abilities that only work for melee weapons, why?
How do these abilities in general interact with 'Ability Store' and 'Spell Store'?
Sniper seems like it should be a scout class
Totemic seems like a fighter class
Duelist feels a bit more rogue than scout( with the ability to treat all weapon attacks as from behind )
The spreadsheet of this is fairly long, so I am including a google doc link. I am interested in any feedback that anyone has one this.
note: I used 'Toolbox' for something that seemed like it would be less used, but is still a good ability to have.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ri9QF8sNB7D65ESzvsC5n0hbm8CCzj3YV0xioPzZ14A/edit#gid=0
A few general notes.
There are a lot of abilities that only work for melee weapons, why?
How do these abilities in general interact with 'Ability Store' and 'Spell Store'?
Sniper seems like it should be a scout class
Totemic seems like a fighter class
Duelist feels a bit more rogue than scout( with the ability to treat all weapon attacks as from behind )
The spreadsheet of this is fairly long, so I am including a google doc link. I am interested in any feedback that anyone has one this.
note: I used 'Toolbox' for something that seemed like it would be less used, but is still a good ability to have.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Ri9QF8sNB7D65ESzvsC5n0hbm8CCzj3YV0xioPzZ14A/edit#gid=0
While I understand what you're going after here, I'm not sure that a direct build equivalency can (or necessarily should) be drawn with many of the Paragon Path abilities, and everyone will value them differently (sometimes dramatically so). One person's 10 build is another person's "that's junk, why would I ever use that?"
