[0.9] Paragon Paths

Muir

Fighter
I disagree. All the Paragon Paths do as written is top load more power into the hands of high build characters. These characters are already more powerful, linearly, by virtue of simply having more build. The purpose of the MI changes, as I see it, is to remove the current status quo of those characters being exponentially more powerful due to build equivalent MIs giving them powers outside their class.

Adding in more ways to do just that seems directly against the goals of the playtest as presented.
 
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Inaryn

Knight
Meh, my highbie could fill out the reqs for several paragon classes... but none of them seem extra appealing to me for her. Just like most magic items. YMMV.
 

Tulbor

Artisan
I disagree. All the Paragon Paths do as written is top load more power into the hands of high build characters.
Again, I have to disagree, while that will happen at the start, this is also a good way for upcoming characters to branch out as well. A mid-level fighter can find a teacher and start his journey on the path of Defender, it gives you a new story to tell as your character grows, something to strive for, something to achieve; something that wasn't around before and a lot of players I've talked to are excited by this new branch.
 

Ruki

Scholar
Again, I have to disagree, while that will happen at the start, this is also a good way for upcoming characters to branch out as well. A mid-level fighter can find a teacher and start his journey on the path of Defender, it gives you a new story to tell as your character grows, something to strive for, something to achieve; something that wasn't around before and a lot of players I've talked to are excited by this new branch.
I'm only a level 12 rogue (adept in a few months), but once 2.0 hits I'll be able to take my first paragon tier. Characters will be able to get into the paragons quite quickly.... and it can be gated by npc teachers.
 
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Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Most chapters I play in grant you a teacher card for npcing an entire weekend. It won't take long for people to learn the skills they want.
 

mythic

Knight
Owner
Calgary Staff
Most chapters I play in grant you a teacher card for npcing an entire weekend. It won't take long for people to learn the skills they want.
It's up to those chapters if they will give out Paragon as those cards. Some things PLOT and chapters do have control over. For our chapter if you NPC an event (and only one) it would be unlikely that we would hand out a Paragon card. If they are FT NPCs then they would get it if they qualify for it. The nice thing about these Paragons is that is can lead to some great RP and personal plot as you seek out this teacher, form a relationship etc. So there are benefits to the RP and character development above and beyond just "power". I am already working on storylines to introduce these so that if they do become part of 2.0 then I have an "easy" way to bring them in. We have been laying the seeds for 2.0 over the last season, and will continue to do so until 2.0 is released.
 
It's up to those chapters if they will give out Paragon as those cards. Some things PLOT and chapters do have control over. For our chapter if you NPC an event (and only one) it would be unlikely that we would hand out a Paragon card. If they are FT NPCs then they would get it if they qualify for it. The nice thing about these Paragons is that is can lead to some great RP and personal plot as you seek out this teacher, form a relationship etc. So there are benefits to the RP and character development above and beyond just "power". I am already working on storylines to introduce these so that if they do become part of 2.0 then I have an "easy" way to bring them in. We have been laying the seeds for 2.0 over the last season, and will continue to do so until 2.0 is released.
I could be reading more into this I should, but what you are saying here makes me wary. Part of what I like about Paragon Paths is that they are available to anyone. I recognize that they have some of the flaws of magic items, but I feel that is well countered by the fact that they are limited in scope, cost build points, and most importantly, equally available to everyone.

Your comments suggest that the equal availability may not be true and that concerns me. This is already a potential problem with our current system and teaching rules. Thankfully, in practice, I have never seen the problem rear its ugly head, in part due to the option to NPC to learn a skill. If players are forced to NPC multiple events or get into the good graces of specific characters* in order to learn paragon paths, I am concerned that the result is stratification that shouldn't exist.

I have never played your game nor witnessed your leadership, so I could be reading more into what you are saying than what you mean, but please note the concern I am expressing based on your current description of intention.

*There is an ugly truth in all LARPing I have ever participated in that OOG relationships often dictate IG relationships. In short, if you are friends with the right person OOG, you are basically assured of getting IG favors from their characters. If you aren't, it tends to be more difficult. Yes, this is metagaming. No, I am not accusing anyone of metagaming. It is the kind of metagaming that simply happens naturally and really can't be helped (though sometimes it develops into problems like an Old Boys Network).

-MS
 

Muir

Fighter
I have run across that problem off and on, because flatly as effectively a travelling player in every chapter I play due to the Midwest's size, it is not cost effective to make every event. When it's a 4-6 hour drive one way, 'NPC for a teacher card' becomes 'spend $150 and one of your limited weekends off for a teacher card'.

At the end of the day, though, my belief that our Teacher system does not add anything to the game and should go away as well probably merits another thread. :)
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
If Plot prevents me from spending my Build Points, I quit that game.

That's simply all there is to it.
 

Tulbor

Artisan
At the end of the day, though, my belief that our Teacher system does not add anything to the game and should go away as well probably merits another thread. :)
That would need a separate thread, and I think you're wrong. It should be expanded. Maybe somethings don't need a teacher, but we certainly have things that Should require teachers that currently don't.
 

mythic

Knight
Owner
Calgary Staff
@mikestrauss I'm not sure what you are wary on? The Paths are available to anyone, yes. Lots of them will be included in our guilds or there will be NPCs already sprinkled into our PLOT that will become teachers of these Paths should they be included in 2.0. We have a very good system for any player to request teaching if they cannot find it IG. All they have to do is ask (usually on their registration form). The PP's will involve more RP than normal in our Chapter mind you. A player can request the start looking for a teacher and we will put that NPC in as soon as we can. It may take a game or two, but the PC should be able to hold onto 10 BP for a month until we can get that story lined up. We do play 12 months of the year, so it would not be too long for a PC.

Does that clear it up? I hope so! If not PM me and we can chat.
 

Captnb

Newbie
I disagree. All the Paragon Paths do as written is top load more power into the hands of high build characters. These characters are already more powerful, linearly, by virtue of simply having more build. The purpose of the MI changes, as I see it, is to remove the current status quo of those characters being exponentially more powerful due to build equivalent MIs giving them powers outside their class.

Adding in more ways to do just that seems directly against the goals of the playtest as presented.
I think you're conflating two separate issues: power disparity been high level characters, and the power of paragon paths vs build replicating MIs.

Higher level characters are pretty much always going to be more powerful than lower level characters. Yes, it is common that the high level characters have more MIs to add onto their cards, but that's universal (I've seen 10th level character be far more powerful than 30th level ones, because the former was decked out in MIs, and the latter had few, if any).

The big differences between the power of MIs (as they exist in 1.3), and that of PPs is that PPs come with the cost of build (so you are trading one form of power for another), and that they have a hard limit on how much power you can get from them. Once you get the 5th level of you Path, that's it.
 

Alavatar

Baron
Chemist (General Question: What is the definition of "Crafting Skill"? Is a "Crafting Skill" one that provides PP?)
  1. For the Passive Ability "When using a Blast Glove, a Chemist may immediately throw a second packet of the same element at half damage", what is the definition of "immediately"?
  2. No fault found.
  3. For the Passive Ability "May use an Alchemy lab as a Create Trap lab and vice-versa (both may be used in the same Logistics period)", if you only crafting Alchemy, but have both labs, do you get the benefits of both labs (i.e. +10PP per Alchemy level)?
  4. For the Passive Ability "When using any Alteration, Curse, Command, or Binding Globe, the chemist may use it as its respective curative (Alteration -> Antidote, Curse -> Cleanse, Command -> Awaken, Binding -> Release) instead of its normal effect" what is meant by the term "use"? Does that mean the Chemist may through the Globe as that curative effect (and therefore have the verbal of the curative)? Or does it mean when used on the Chemist? For the Active Ability (seems like an odd Active Ability since it isn't trading an expendable skill, but instead providing another "recipe"), may the Natural Armor be refit per normal or is it gone when damaged to 0? For the Per-Day Ability, are the 3 chosen Blast Globes or Trap Globes actual tags received or are they put onto the Battleboard as an actual "Per-Day" that does not carry-over to the next day?
  5. Does the Per-Day Spellcraft count as a single Spellcraft or is it actually 2 separate Spellcrafts (1/d Spellcraft Poison Trigger and 1/day Spellcraft Poison Cache)? Do the two Spellcraft effects (if it is actually 2 separate Spellcrafts) need to be on the same weapon or can they be placed on different weapons?
Follow-on question for Chemist Level 4:
  • Now that there isn't an armor cap except for Class Limits + WEA, is there an upper limit the Level 4 Chemist Natural Armor can go?
My next post will be a continuation of my previous post, picking up with Magekiller.
 

Muir

Fighter
I think you're conflating two separate issues: power disparity been high level characters, and the power of paragon paths vs build replicating MIs.

Higher level characters are pretty much always going to be more powerful than lower level characters. Yes, it is common that the high level characters have more MIs to add onto their cards, but that's universal (I've seen 10th level character be far more powerful than 30th level ones, because the former was decked out in MIs, and the latter had few, if any).

The big differences between the power of MIs (as they exist in 1.3), and that of PPs is that PPs come with the cost of build (so you are trading one form of power for another), and that they have a hard limit on how much power you can get from them. Once you get the 5th level of you Path, that's it.
I don't think I'm conflating anything, so much as speaking to interrelated problems. One of the huge issues with the present MI system, and Constructs, that was explicitly credited as the reason for removing one and massively overhauling the other, was that they allowed PCs to get easy access to abilities outside their class, or outside the PC skillset entirely. PPs as written add both back into the game.
 
I don't think I'm conflating anything, so much as speaking to interrelated problems. One of the huge issues with the present MI system, and Constructs, that was explicitly credited as the reason for removing one and massively overhauling the other, was that they allowed PCs to get easy access to abilities outside their class, or outside the PC skillset entirely. PPs as written add both back into the game.
I am of the opinion that you are failing to recognize the aesthetic constraints on these PPs. With magic items, any fighter could pick up dozens of Prisons, Banes, and Life spells. Similarly, casters could pick equip weapons that effectively gave multiple proficiencies and equip high armor.

Paragon paths don't create the same "buffet table" style of optimal delights. When they do offer skills outside of your standard skillset, those benefits are specifically limited in scope and often power. There simply isn't a paragon path that allows a fighter to get 20 Life spells per day. I haven't read them all, but I suspect, at best, they could get 1 (or maybe slightly more with restricted use).

As an example, I play a Scout. Looking at Duelist, even if I picked up all five levels of it, I would gain exactly 3 benefits outside my standard skillset. I would gain a 1/day bind, the ability to swing some modestly useful carriers against a single target (best are slow, bind, and weakness) at the cost of a crit/ba, and the ability to swing the repel carrier against almost anyone for 10 minutes at the cost of a terminate (limited by the fact that my damage against those targets would be base weapon damage). All other features grant benefits that are within the skillset of a Scout (though admittedly the final feature is similar to having bought Hearty about 15 - 20 times, in regards to a specific target).

If I wanted those abilities (or something close), with magic items, I would take a 1/day confine (not bind) and probably way more than one. Similarly, I would choose to swing Shun as a carrier (or simply get multiple daily use shun items) well before the much more limited Repel.

I don't have those options, though. I take what the paragon path gives me and smile (or frown... doesn't really matter).

It is possible that some paragon paths are badly balanced. If that is the case, then the specifics of that path need to be tinkered with. But mechanically speaking, offering benefits beyond the scope of standard skills, that are limited both thematically and in power level, is actually one of the BETTER ways to ensure that a game remains both balanced and interesting.

-MS
 

Alavatar

Baron
Magekiller
  1. No fault found.
  2. No fault found. Cheap Dispels.
  3. For the Passive Ability "Whenever the Magekiller successfully uses a Guard or Return defense against an attack with the Spell Qualifier, they may immediately use 5 Spell Healing/Chaos/Stone/Lightning/Flame/Ice/Mend Armor with a single packet" what is the definition of "immediately"?
  4. Is the Passive Ability "Whenever the Magekiller has a Back Attack batch active, they may change their weapon carrier with melee weapons to "Silence"" active on all swings during that Back Attack active? Or is it only on attacks where the Back Attack take effect (i.e. From Behind)?
  5. No fault found.
Ravager
  1. No fault found.
  2. No fault found.
  3. No fault found.
  4. No fault found.
  5. No fault found.
Ritualist
  1. No fault found.
  2. No fault found.
  3. No fault found.
  4. For the Per-Day ability "1/day create any Spellcraftable effect at its lowest level, cast using the character's Primary School if possible. The Spellcraft tag must be chosen and filled out at Logistics during memorization" does the Ritualist need the scroll of the ritual they intend to Spellcraft? The phrase "create any Spellcraftable effect" implies a scroll is not required.
  5. For the Per-Day ability "2 additional High Magic points in either school", does that mean the High Magic can be used for either Earth or Celestial High Magic effects even if the Ritualist does not have that school of magic?
Skirmisher
  1. No fault found.
  2. No fault found.
  3. No fault found.
  4. For clarification, when expending an Assassinate to swing once for Elemental Berserk, that swing does not need to be From Behind?
  5. For the Active Ability, "May expend a Riposte while in a Circle of Power to gain a spellcrafted Spirit Recall ritual on themselves to that Circle of Power" will a Marshal have to sign off on the Spirit Recall or will the player need a Spellcraft tag? I am confused how this will be recorded/managed for the character.
Sniper
  1. No fault found.
  2. No fault found.
  3. No fault found.
  4. No fault found.
  5. No fault found.
Specialist
  1. No fault found. It seems odd that the Elementalist can change their element after spending 10 minutes in a CoP, but a Specialist is stuck with their school when the Paragon Path is taken.
  2. To validate, for the Active Ability "The character may expend any memorized spell to Intercept an effect from their Specialist School that strikes another character within weapon distance, no matter what its delivery" the memorized spell expended does not need to be of the Specialist's School?
  3. For the Passive Ability to immediately rethrow the spell on a miss, what is the definition of "immediately"? Since the ability states "throw" instead of "cast" is the incantation not required? For the Per-Day "2/day spellcrafted Cloak <Specialist School>", does that mean the Specialists has 2 Spellcraft Cloaks per day they can cast on other characters or does it mean the Specialist has 2 Cloaks spellcrafted on them? If the later, are the Cloaks on the Spirit or the Body; and if they get removed (Destroy Magic or resurrection) do they refresh at Logistics?
  4. For the Per-Day ability, the same question as for the Level 3 Per-Day ability
  5. No fault found.
Spellblade
  1. No fault found.
  2. No fault found.
  3. That Passive Ability will create some high Body Earth Spellswords.
  4. No fault found.
  5. To clarify, does the Passive Ability "Whenever the Spellblade casts (from memory or class ability, not Magic Item or Production item) a Protection/Enhancement spell on another character, they may choose to gain that effect as well as though touch cast and accepted on themselves" activate when the Per-Day Ability is used "3/day Spell <any Protection/ Enhancement effect, chosen at time of use>"?
Stalker
  1. Note: Stalker Level 1 Passive Ability grants nearly the same thing as Skirmisher Level 5 Passive Ability. For the Active Ability, "May expend one or more Spell Light effects (from memory or class ability) to add +5 for each Light expended to any Evocation Bolt or Cure/Cause Wounds spell cast from memory" the spell Light is still Celestial so expending Light to improve Cure/Cause Wounds spell will be inherently more challenging for an Earth Stalker. Perhaps not much more challenging since Stalker gives 10/day Light by Stalker L3, but still an Earth Stalker will be at a minor disadvantage.
  2. No fault found.
  3. No fault found.
  4. For the Active Ability during daytime, "During daytime, may consume a Liquid Light, Light spell, or Light scroll to add 10 damage to any single melee weapon swing From Behind (this may not be stacked)" is that +10 damage added to the next swing or is it at the Stalker's choosing? If it is the Stalker's choosing, may the Stalker build up several "charges"?
  5. No fault found.
Steelsoul
  1. The Passive Ability "Celestial Armor provides Natural Armor (this permits it to ignore class maximums). A Steelsoul may purchase an additional level of Celestial Armor beyond the normal maximum per level of Steelsoul" seems odd for a character that could earn it way before having traditional High Magic (even if High Magic is given through the Per-Day Abilities).
  2. Does the Per-Day Ability for a Spellcrafted Spirit Link, self only, occupy a Ritual Slot? It says it can target a weapon that is already Spirit Linked/Locked to themself, but does not account for a 20-rit weapon.
  3. No fault found.
  4. For validation for the Passive Ability "While a Steelsoul's Natural Armor is at maximum, the Steelsoul may benefit from the Karma ritual (without spending any Ritual Use points) against any attack with the Spell qualifier which she uses a valid Guard defense against" any Guard defense can power this including Spell Shield, Cloak, Resist, Dodge, etc.? Also, "Karma" should be changed to "Retribution". Will the Active Ability "When the Steelsoul uses a Resist or Cloak, she gains an Effect Block verses the appropriate effect which expires at the next Logistics" given Effect Block be granted when the Guard is used in conjunction with the Passive Ability? And can the Effect Block also be used with the Passive Ability?
  5. Will the Resists used per the Active Ability "May expend any 7th or higher level memorized spell to Resist a Command, Necromancy, Poison, or Binding effect" trigger either or both the Level 4 Passive and Active Abilities?
Totemic
  1. No fault found.
  2. No fault found.
  3. No fault found.
  4. No fault found.
  5. Hypothetically, should a Totemic take advantage of the Passive Ability "The Totemic's Body (not Spirit) is considered a weapon for the purpose of ritual magic targeting. Rituals used this way may only be activated for use through the wielder's Claws." to be ritually enchanted with Weapon rituals, then Spirit Forges out of Totemic, what happens? Assume the character still has claws (Wylderkyn)
Warden
  1. No fault found.
  2. No fault found.
  3. No fault found.
  4. No fault found.
  5. No fault found.
Warleader
  1. Note: The Active Ability "May expend 5 Body (unavoidable in any way) to swing once for Elemental Release, Elemental Antidote, Elemental Cleanse, or Elemental Awaken" costs half the Body sacrifice than the Warden Level 4 Active Ability for, arguably, a better Qualifier (Elemental vs. Spell); except Warden is Touchcast where-as Warleader is a weapon swing.
  2. For the Active Ability "May Focus for 60 seconds with another character and expend a Teacher Skill to grant them a Recharge Prowess effect as per the Ritual. All other requirements of Recharge Prowess must still be met. The Warleader may not grant themselves this effect" what is the Target? The Ritual, for reference, has a target of Item.
  3. For the Active Ability "May Focus with up to one character per level of Warleader for 60 seconds and spend one per-day Fighting or Teacher Skill to grant all of those characters a Raging Blow effect as per the Ritual which must be used on their next weapon swing within 10 minutes. The Warleader may not grant themselves this ability" what is the Target? The Ritual, for reference, has a target of Item.
  4. No fault found.
  5. For the Passive Ability "Whenever the Warleader is affected by a Healing, Chaos, or Protective/Enhancement effect, the Warleader may spend a Teacher skill to grant an identical effect to another character by touchcast within the next 3 seconds" could two Warleaders stand together, one drink a Cure Mortal Wounds Potion, and begin a chain effect of Healing each other?
Warsmith (For Clarification, what is the definition of a "Crafting Skill"?)
  1. For the Per-Day Ability, "Shatter Block 3/day (as per the Monster Ability)" what is Shatter Block? I cannot find a reference to this in either the 1.3 ARB or the 2.0 write-up.
  2. No fault found.
  3. No fault found.
  4. No fault found.
  5. No fault found.
 
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Alavatar

Baron
As a side note: As I was going through these Paragon Paths one-by-one, the thought of processing and establishing the Logistics to incorporate this mechanic makes me cry on behalf of the Logistics personnel. While many of these abilities are really cool, I am having a hard time envisioning an easy way to put these abilities on the Character Card or Battle Board. I look forward to seeing what The Powers That Be come up with.
 
Nope, the Skirmisher berserk ability doesn't have to be delivered from behind. However, if you don't deliver it from behind (or at least from a flank), you are quite foolish and deserve the many weapon whacks you are about to receive.

-MS
 

Thorcanine

Newbie
I know this is just the proposal. But I would like to possibly see a Earth Scholar/Templar Path that has to do with Curses, as there are some Earth Casters who do not focus on Healing.
 

EC-JP

Scholar
Alliance Rules
Curse is a valid option for Specialist (as is command, binding, and some others). Healing and Evocation were specifically excluded.
 
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