[2.0] Read and Write

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
scroll tags are smaller then potion tags. If you are refering to the scroll rep, yes its paper but you also have to buy potion reps too. Unless of coruse you get players to donate.
Accurate. You don't -need- to have fancy scroll tags (Seattle does, too). If your scrolls cost you more to print than potions, it's because you're giving a full rep versus just a tag.

Edit: TLDR; I don't think you can use print-costs as a justification, since that's purely optional. "Thematics" is understandable, even if I disagree with you.
 

Mark of Chaos

Artisan
Denver Staff
With the removal of spell per day magic items, removing earth potions from non-earth caster's use on top of it (I assume earth scrolls would have the same reqs for use as celestial) would probably be a step too far.
 

Muir

Fighter
It would definitely be vastly more deadly. No cure light potions would be a pretty sure way to ensure that the current crop of low-level PCs never survive long enough to be the relatively unkillable high levels through sheer attrition.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
That's assuming said low-level PCs don't have access to someone that can use said scrolls. Additionally, E-Casters in the new system would have access to more healing. Folks would adjust.

Essentially, the idea is designed to provide E-Casters with resource exclusivity roughly equivalent to their C-Casting counterparts.
 

Mark of Chaos

Artisan
Denver Staff
Alchemy makes a cure light still. But there goes open access to status removals (the real way people/teams will get killed).
 

norman b

Squire
Marshal
This idea would encourage either more JOAT or a larger cooperation with E-casters.
 

norman b

Squire
Marshal
Alchemy makes a cure light still. But there goes open access to status removals (the real way people/teams will get killed).
Aren't we trying to make it more of a team game? How better than to remove a fighter/rogues ability to purify their friends with potions? Or they pick up the pre-reqs (which many high level characters do anyway).
 

Mark of Chaos

Artisan
Denver Staff
Two issues I see with it:
1. It is occuring on top of removal of cloak/bane items and spell per day items (so more things will land, and there will be fewer ways to remove them)

2. It creates a lynchpin issue. Taking out one or two characters puts an entire group at risk.

At least with potions there is a resource consumption occurring, and one that will probably take a steep step up already with rules as-is. Gold flowing back out is good.

Edited to clean up a couple things
 

norman b

Squire
Marshal
1. Plot should stat with that in mind. If I throw out a 15 prison monster now with the idea that many will be stopped, I shouldn't be throwing that out after the new rules.

2. This already exists. Prison the person with the potions/dispel scrolls. Now the team is lost without them. Again, trust your plot teams not to completely screw you out of the encounter. I also don't see people not buying Earth Scrolls just because they aren't in potion form. I see more people spending the build to get access to the abilities to use them.
 

Mark of Chaos

Artisan
Denver Staff
Do your teams keep all the potions on one person? Honest curiosity. Seems silly when everyone can use them.

I agree that people would absolutely spend the build to use them. I believe they would do it because they felt it was necessary, which seems contrary to how things are being designed in this rules change.

"Trust your plot team" only goes so far. Things happen. NPCs don't throttle, plot doesn't realize your earth casters are almost tapped, just plain bad luck.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Norm's right on the money.

You want to know why people didn't want to get rid of pocket healers? Because they felt good knowing that they didn't need someone else to take care of them, that they were able to handle themselves, that they could be self-sufficient. Potions fly in the face of relying on other people, and it's always sorta bugged me that it was an exception to the rule.

Use weapons? You need alchemy to apply a coating.

Need a Dispel? Get yourself a Celestial caster.

Need healing/protective spells? No problem! No skill required for this magical drink thing!

Do your teams keep all the potions on one person? Honest curiosity. Seems silly when everyone can use them.
That, bud, is the problem.
 

Mark of Chaos

Artisan
Denver Staff
Is it? What if, instead of changing which people could remove effects, you changed which effects allow you to still drink a potion (change ability to self remove)? You then still need a friend, but it isn't required to be an earth caster.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Is it? What if, instead of changing which people could remove effects, you changed which effects allow you to still drunk a potion? You then still need a friend, but it isn't required to be an earth caster.
Because I believe that you -should- rely on Earth Casters (or at least highly skilled Potioncrafters!) for status removal/healing.

Why are you resistant to giving Earth Casters the value they...kinda should have?
 

Mark of Chaos

Artisan
Denver Staff
I believe they are already extremely valuable with the other changes that have been made.
 

Mark of Chaos

Artisan
Denver Staff
Especially compared to something like, say, your average rogue.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I believe they are already extremely valuable with the other changes that have been made.
"Paper is OP. Scissors is fine." -Rock

I'm referring to balancing resource availability for Earth Casters that exists for C-Casters, and your argument is that "It's fine, because non-healers should totally be able to carry pockets of healing potions without spending a single build point to use them, despite that literally no other production skill in the game works this way."
 

Saephis

Squire
(Admittedly jumping in late, and experience here suggests I'll regret it, however...)

Look at it this way...

Alchemy? Usable by Alchemists. (Excluding Elixirs -- and why?)
Blacksmithing items that need maintenance? Done by Blacksmiths.
Scrolls? Usable by Celestialists.
Traps? Trap makers only, bruh.

Potions? Nah, everyone can use these, take a handful.

Every "profession" seems to have items to make them "better", or allow them to last longer doing what they do. Except Earth casters. Why is that, outside of everyone wanting what they can do?

Yes, there is something to be said for making resources available for low level/new players, however if the point is to encourage a well rounded group ... Don't leave without someone(s) who can use curatives.
 

norman b

Squire
Marshal
Also tangent (slightly), being even more screwed by the rules is having to use alchemy to apply potions to a potion blade ritual. (https://alliancelarp.com/forum/threads/potion-coating-clarification.33507/) That devalues create potion/earth casters a little more. Having the ability to be the only ones to use it be those who spent the build into healing arts/first aid would be splendid.
 

Mark of Chaos

Artisan
Denver Staff
Okay, so we've isolated an exception in the crafting rules. That's great! That's what we're trying to get rid of. But before we do that, let's ask: why is it there?

I think it's perfectly clear from my prior responses that I'm not some game-theory guru. I'm just poking at the system placed in front of me to see how things work. Here's what it looks like to me: without potions Healing (and status removal) is the exception in the combat rules. Every class can do damage, manipulate a fight through c.c. or has instant takeout abilities inside its own sphere of abilities. Without potions Healing lives only in the earth caster's bubble.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Every class can do damage, manipulate a fight through c.c. or has instant takeout abilities inside its own sphere of abilities. Without potions Healing lives only in the earth caster's bubble.
Have you ever attempted to be a damage character with Earth Skills?

Better hope each and every single one of your targets is an Undead, because otherwise, you're taking deaths, necromancer.

Earth Casters don't receive generally applicable damage skills, unlike C-Casters with Wands. Fighters and Rogues all get Weapon and Damage Increase skills as class skills. Earth Casters can do CC, sure...but they can't extend that CC like Celestial casters, who get Scrolls. Earth Casters can extend their Healing/Protective access with Potions....but they have to share those Potions with everyone who has literally one functional arm and consciousness.
 
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