[2.0] Read and Write

mythic

Knight
Owner
Calgary Staff
You need R/W to ID a celestial scroll. As R/W would be removed, this would take over.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
MS and Evan are correct.
I would like to add that allowing people to ID in a short time isn't game breaking and should fit fine into 2.0 along with the current rules as well.
 
I would like to add that allowing people to ID in a short time isn't game breaking and should fit fine into 2.0 along with the current rules as well.
I agree, though I think it might be harmful to the game if scrolls suddenly went from being identifiable in about half a second to 60 / 30 seconds. That is a pretty major decrease in power for a celestial caster and conceptually odd as well (since scrolls, unlike potions and alchemy, literally have their name written on them).

-MS
 

norman b

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
I agree, though I think it might be harmful to the game if scrolls suddenly went from being identifiable in about half a second to 60 / 30 seconds. That is a pretty major decrease in power for a celestial caster and conceptually odd as well (since scrolls, unlike potions and alchemy, literally have their name written on them).

-MS
Honestly, I think it should be across the board the same. It's that getting rid of exceptions things. "Everything takes 60 seconds to identify. Well except scrolls. Those can be instant." I wouldn't say its a major power decrease at all considering all of the major power Celestialists have right now. Curbing that isn't going to harm their game much at all honestly.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Personally, I always found it irritating that mundane items needed to be identified beyond three seconds of RP. I genuinely have no idea what the delay adds to the game, outside of providing an artificial value to "identification" skills.
 
Honestly, I think it should be across the board the same. It's that getting rid of exceptions things. "Everything takes 60 seconds to identify. Well except scrolls. Those can be instant." I wouldn't say its a major power decrease at all considering all of the major power Celestialists have right now. Curbing that isn't going to harm their game much at all honestly.
There is a difference, though. If I pick up a potion or an elixir, even if I haven't identified it, I can still use it. There is no way to use an unidentified scroll. And if we add a way, then you have opened a form of metagaming that is hard to counter.

Furthermore, it is a tad ridiculous, if you think about it. The common way to deal with identified potions / elixirs is to label them. It is a tad ridiculous if we are labeling scrolls, because that literally means we are writing the name of the scroll on or near the scroll (which already has the name on it). The fast identify for scrolls is, admittedly, something that exists purely because it is hard not to metagame otherwise. But that is a reasonable metric for making rules (and is the reason we don't have invisibility rules, for example).

-MS
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Honestly, I think it should be across the board the same. It's that getting rid of exceptions things. "Everything takes 60 seconds to identify. Well except scrolls. Those can be instant." I wouldn't say its a major power decrease at all considering all of the major power Celestialists have right now. Curbing that isn't going to harm their game much at all honestly.
I have always played it as if the label was readable it was already identified (it was labeled). You needed to spend the minute if it had an "unidentified" tag or the tag was inside out (as chapters didn't want to waste money on printing "unidentified" tags).

Edit* Only if you had R/W of course.


I was told that exceptions still exist and we can't get rid of them all (see Death Spell).
 

mythic

Knight
Owner
Calgary Staff
Our physreps are foldable. The outer fold has the spell name and incant on it, but in a different font (completely illegible unless you want to spend time translating it). The inner fold is the same information in normal font. So when a PC picks up a scroll, they cannot immediately ID it. If they have R/W then they open the scroll up and viola. Same principle as IDing a potion/alchemy. In 3 seconds you can determine which one it is (potion/alch) but then you need to spend a minute figuring it out what it is (the ingredients).

Why not the same for scrolls? If you just use a little imagination, it's not hard to think there are celestial "formulas, equations, hand gestures" etc. that all have to be interpreted before you can figure out which spell is on the scroll. Maybe the creator used some form of shorthand that you need to figure out etc.

Lots of players still think you need Read Magic to even ID a scroll. There is lots of confusion with it. I think this skill would help out a lot to decreas the utter drudging that IDing takes. I watched at a Nationals a pile of tags and several players sitting there for an hour trying to figure out the pile. They did not look overly excited to have to sit there.
 

norman b

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
There is a difference, though. If I pick up a potion or an elixir, even if I haven't identified it, I can still use it. There is no way to use an unidentified scroll. And if we add a way, then you have opened a form of metagaming that is hard to counter.

Furthermore, it is a tad ridiculous, if you think about it. The common way to deal with identified potions / elixirs is to label them. It is a tad ridiculous if we are labeling scrolls, because that literally means we are writing the name of the scroll on or near the scroll (which already has the name on it). The fast identify for scrolls is, admittedly, something that exists purely because it is hard not to metagame otherwise. But that is a reasonable metric for making rules (and is the reason we don't have invisibility rules, for example).

-MS
And this is the reason I am in the boat to get rid of ID timers entirely. :p But this is not the place for the conversation on that necessarily. Should you be able to read what's on the scroll since it is WRITTEN ON THE SCROLL, absolutely. Should I have to spend 3 hours identifying loot? No, that's boring. No one wants to do that job. It detracts from game IMO.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
I have always played it as if the label was readable it was already identified (it was labeled). You needed to spend the minute if it had an "unidentified" tag or the tag was inside out (as chapters didn't want to waste money on printing "unidentified" tags).

Edit* Only if you had R/W of course.


I was told that exceptions still exist and we can't get rid of them all (see Death Spell).
I have never seen an "unidentified" tag. It's my understanding that the only tags that are immediately identifiable are Trap tags and Scroll tags (if you have R/W). If you find a vial with a potion/alchemy tag inside it, it should require the ID count.

I would recommend discussing that with your local Marshals.
 
I watched at a Nationals a pile of tags and several players sitting there for an hour trying to figure out the pile. They did not look overly excited to have to sit there.
I am honestly confused. You observed players not enjoying the process of identifying tags and yet you are proposing adding a tag identification time to something that doesn't already have it? That seems counterintuitive to me.

-MS
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Why not the same for scrolls? If you just use a little imagination, it's not hard to think there are celestial "formulas, equations, hand gestures" etc. that all have to be interpreted before you can figure out which spell is on the scroll. Maybe the creator used some form of shorthand that you need to figure out etc.
Because I'd write all my buddies notes in Magic, and include an OOG entry that says, "You cannot read this message if you can't Read Magic. Tough luck."
 

mythic

Knight
Owner
Calgary Staff
I am honestly confused. You observed players not enjoying the process of identifying tags and yet you are proposing adding a tag identification time to something that doesn't already have it? That seems counterintuitive to me.

-MS
Not really, now everyone, no matter if they have RM or not, as long as they have this skill (whatever it ends up being called, 'Educated' or 'Intellectual' or 'Learned' can ID any of those tags at 60 seconds. If they have the pre-req skill to creating them, its now 30 seconds. If they have JM it is 15 and if they have Master it is 3 seconds. So a Master Scroll maker would take 3 seconds to ID it (about the same about of time as actually reading the scroll). On the whole, it would reduce IDing immensely (for potions and alchemy esp.) so there is a minor trade off of adding scrolls to ID properly now in game (making all items take a minimum of 60 seconds but scaling that down pretty quickly if you have any JM or Master item makers in chapter.

Evan: I have seen the "unidentified" tags, but rarely have seen them in use. We used to just turn potion/alchemy tags to the inside of the vial and then players had to fish them out and ID them, then turn them around as part of the 60 seconds. We have since stopped handing out the vial physreps as replacement costs were too high. I guess if a plot team wanted too (and was pretty damn organized) they would have a bunch of "unidentified" items in a treasure pile and then when the players spent the time to ID them, they get swapped out for the correct tag? :confused:
 

mythic

Knight
Owner
Calgary Staff
Because I'd write all my buddies notes in Magic, and include an OOG entry that says, "You cannot read this message if you can't Read Magic. Tough luck."
Why not? It would be the same as someone writing a note in French or German etc and if you cannot read it, or did not have a cipher, then yeah, tough luck. We do that to notes written by PLOT all the time. If your PLOT team gives you a font that is "magic" and you write your notes in said style, sure. We had a player learn "Gnoll" this year and could pretty much read every note that came by from memory.
 
I want to consider this from the perspective of a player.

If I am a celestial caster, you just made the game significantly less pleasant for me, placing a 60 build tax on the ability to identify scrolls quickly and effectively removing my ability to use scroll treasure quickly in tight situations (like modules). It is a lesser penalty, but you have also partially taken away my ability to trade / use scrolls as currency / divvy scrolls after a module with individuals who don't have read magic (a kind of trade that is actually surprising more common that you might expect). Furthermore, if I am Read Magic / 1 spell caster (common for characters that want just enough Read Magic to cast Spell Shield), you have also made my game significantly more frustrating, as I will often spend 30 seconds identifying a scroll I can't use.

If I am an earth caster, you have halved the time it takes to identify potions, which is a modest benefit. However, if I am a master potion maker, you have actually lessened the value of obtaining mastery. The ONLY value of obtaining mastery is reduced identification time. If everyone already gets that benefit and there is another reduction in time at journeyman level, I'm seeing very little benefit for mastery (a benefit that was already questionable).

If I am a 3 rank alchemist (the most common type of alchemist in the game), you halved identification time, which is a modest benefit, though still doesn't really help me in the heat of battle if I find treasure. If I am a master alchemist (or even a journeyman), odds are that I make the majority of my alchemy, so the reduction in identification time, while nice, doesn't affect me that much.

Overall, one type of character (and characters that dip into that specialization) get a significant increase in frustration. The majority of another type of character sees a minor decrease in frustration (though, I would argue that 30 seconds is roughly as bad as 60 seconds for frustration). Finally, the greater portion of one type of character (which often overlaps with one of the first two types) is likely to enjoy the same minor decrease in frustration, while the smaller portion enjoys decreased frustration for a feature that they less often have to use.

-MS

P.S. - I like the idea of reducing identification time for increased player enjoyment, but I feel this solution simply decreases enjoyment of the game at least as much as it adds to it.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Why not? It would be the same as someone writing a note in French or German etc and if you cannot read it, or did not have a cipher, then yeah, tough luck. We do that to notes written by PLOT all the time. If your PLOT team gives you a font that is "magic" and you write your notes in said style, sure. We had a player learn "Gnoll" this year and could pretty much read every note that came by from memory.
Because it's cheesy.

We allow folks to use alternative languages by actually knowing alternative languages.

This is a cheesy workaround.
 

Muir

Fighter
I want to consider this from the perspective of a player.

If I am a celestial caster, you just made the game significantly less pleasant for me, placing a 60 build tax on the ability to identify scrolls quickly and effectively removing my ability to use scroll treasure quickly in tight situations (like modules). It is a lesser penalty, but you have also partially taken away my ability to trade / use scrolls as currency / divvy scrolls after a module with individuals who don't have read magic (a kind of trade that is actually surprising more common that you might expect). Furthermore, if I am Read Magic / 1 spell caster (common for characters that want just enough Read Magic to cast Spell Shield), you have also made my game significantly more frustrating, as I will often spend 30 seconds identifying a scroll I can't use.

If I am an earth caster, you have halved the time it takes to identify potions, which is a modest benefit. However, if I am a master potion maker, you have actually lessened the value of obtaining mastery. The ONLY value of obtaining mastery is reduced identification time. If everyone already gets that benefit and there is another reduction in time at journeyman level, I'm seeing very little benefit for mastery (a benefit that was already questionable).

If I am a 3 rank alchemist (the most common type of alchemist in the game), you halved identification time, which is a modest benefit, though still doesn't really help me in the heat of battle if I find treasure. If I am a master alchemist (or even a journeyman), odds are that I make the majority of my alchemy, so the reduction in identification time, while nice, doesn't affect me that much.

Overall, one type of character (and characters that dip into that specialization) get a significant increase in frustration. The majority of another type of character sees a minor decrease in frustration (though, I would argue that 30 seconds is roughly as bad as 60 seconds for frustration). Finally, the greater portion of one type of character (which often overlaps with one of the first two types) is likely to enjoy the same minor decrease in frustration, while the smaller portion enjoys decreased frustration for a feature that they less often have to use.

-MS

P.S. - I like the idea of reducing identification time for increased player enjoyment, but I feel this solution simply decreases enjoyment of the game at least as much as it adds to it.

Mike, I think the greater argument to be made here is that the mastery 'bonuses' for those abilities simply aren't very good.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
I have never seen an "unidentified" tag. It's my understanding that the only tags that are immediately identifiable are Trap tags and Scroll tags (if you have R/W). If you find a vial with a potion/alchemy tag inside it, it should require the ID count.

I would recommend discussing that with your local Marshals.
So do you always spend the 60 seconds to Id your own potions? What if I noticed you drop one and I pick it up, I guess by your assumption I would need to ID it again. What happens when i'm down and my friend the C Scholar comes over to feed me a potion. I guess he should have id it and not let the potion out of his site.

At what point do you consider the potion id and not? When an npc hands it to you as loot? There needs to be a start and stop of it.

I would like to point out that in the rulebook it states "Some potions you find will already be labeled. Others will be unidentified. These are usually marked as such but will say out-of-game whether the unidentified item is magical or alchemical. Once a character with the skill spends the minute to identify the potion, the "unidentified" tag may then be removed, revealing the real tag below." (the same goes for Herbal Lore).

Evan I am a bit offended that you feel that I should discuss it with my local marshals, as if I am playing it wrong in some way. I'm not going to go into detail or respond harshly or with a snarky comment. I will leave it as that.
 

mythic

Knight
Owner
Calgary Staff
FWIW we only hand out the "real" tags and assume each player is playing on the honour system (as we no longer give out the physrep). Once they place it in a vial, then they can consider it "ID'd". Now if someone picks it up and does not have R/W then they would have to spend the time to ID it once again (which would be odd if they can ID it they have R/W).

We have players that "label" them with coloured bands, jelly beans, coloured lids, tic-tacs etc. Our tags are colour coded for potions, alchemy (coatings/elixir/gas) so a PC can take the 3 seconds to ID the type, then either ID it with the correct skill, or pass it off. Most groups that go out also tell each other where to grab a healing potion from (again using the aforementioned labeling styles) this pouch, or that bandolier etc.

If someone does not want people to know what potions/elixirs they have, they can keep the tag pointing in and that would force someone to ID it before consuming it (if they wanted too)
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
So do you always spend the 60 seconds to Id your own potions? What if I noticed you drop one and I pick it up, I guess by your assumption I would need to ID it again. What happens when i'm down and my friend the C Scholar comes over to feed me a potion. I guess he should have id it and not let the potion out of his site.
Honor system? I keep unidentified stuff separate from identified stuff until it's been identified.


At what point do you consider the potion id and not? When an npc hands it to you as loot? There needs to be a start and stop of it.
If its an item that came into my possession that I never personally identified and nobody told me what it is, I assume it needs to be identified. Just like magic items, actually. Just because a player hands you an MI tag doesn't mean you know inherently what it is, they have to actually communicate it to you.

I would like to point out that in the rulebook it states "Some potions you find will already be labeled. Others will be unidentified. These are usually marked as such but will say out-of-game whether the unidentified item is magical or alchemical. Once a character with the skill spends the minute to identify the potion, the "unidentified" tag may then be removed, revealing the real tag below." (the same goes for Herbal Lore).

Evan I am a bit offended that you feel that I should discuss it with my local marshals, as if I am playing it wrong in some way. I'm not going to go into detail or respond harshly or with a snarky comment. I will leave it as that.
I recommended you talk to your Marshals because your chapter may handle it differently than mine does. I'm sorry that you felt offended, but the suggestion I made to you was pretty reasonable, as it's entirely possible you're playing it just fine for your chapter, or maybe not. Please don't assume I'm making an assumption about your understanding purely because you disliked my suggestion.
 
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