[2.0] Read and Write

kalindra

Adept
Back slightly to the topic of the read-write skill...

Starting with the assumptions:
1: We need a skill to effectively replace Read-Write that is useful without devaluing the crafting skills (specifically, potions and alchemy).
2: Spending 1 minute per item to ID potions/elixirs is crazy boring, but a necessary requirement for various reasons.*

What if:
--R-W is replaced by "Educated" or "Learned" or "x". This skill allows you to identify potions/elixirs with one minute of RP out of combat.**
--The applicable skills (Healing Arts or Herbal Lore) allow you to ID in 30 seconds out of combat, or one minute in combat.
--20 ranks of potions/alchemy allow you to ID in 5 seconds out of combat, or 30 seconds in combat.

Something like that.

*E.g., because of people using unidentified drinkables right after they're found in combat and/or metagaming when stealing stuff and/or being allowed to lie to each other when selling things to someone who can't ID, etc.

**I.e., not during an encounter. We would need a definition of "out of combat" here, but the intent being that you can't ID things during a mod/during the mod where you obtained the item.
 
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Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
**I.e., not during an encounter. We would need a definition of "out of combat" here, but the intent being that you can't ID things during a mod/during the mod where you obtained the item.
I think the easiest way to designate something as Out-of-Combat would be to designate is as an enclosed space within which combat cannot be seen or heard.

This would mean that, as an example, a tavern building would be Out-of-Combat as long as combat was not occurring in the immediate vicinity. This would allow folks to have an Out-of-Combat setting, but not just run inside to avoid combat and get the advantages of Out-of-Combat benefits.
 

Eldor

Artisan
Why even have a distinction between combat and non-combat. If you have the ability to identify, how would having combat happening near you change that ability. Why should identifying be any different than say readjusting your armor in regards to combat?
 

kalindra

Adept
Because traps and armor would be pretty useless if you couldn't use them in combat, whereas identifying is basically a bookkeeping step that isn't intended to be a useful combat ability.
On an in-game level, you identify potions by smell and color, which would be difficult to do outside when a bunch of stuff is happening. (Yes, fixing armor would be hard under those conditions too, but armor is a thing people need to use multiple times per encounter.)

I was trying to think of a way to have a meaningful difference between having RW, having Herbal Lore and having 20 ranks of alchemy. The in/out combat thing was just an acknowledgment that identification pretty much always done by bored people at a table in the tavern, but you also don't want to make it effectively instant for people with the skill without some limitation.
But I'm not tied to that idea. You could also have 1 minute with RW, 30 sec with HL, and five seconds with mastery. Or two minutes for just RW and the others same as the current way.
 

norman b

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
If I can set and disarm traps 'in combat' I can't really justify not being able to identify items.
Why even have a distinction between combat and non-combat. If you have the ability to identify, how would having combat happening near you change that ability. Why should identifying be any different than say readjusting your armor in regards to combat?
There is a negative for both of these. Traps go off. Armor is not replenished and you have to start over. There isn't really a negative for potion ID except starting over. It should be distracting and be difficult to ID in combat.
 
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Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
There is a negative for both of these. Traps go off. Armor is not replenished and you have to start over. There isn't really a negative for potion use except starting over. It should be distracting and be difficult to ID in combat.
More distracting and difficult than casting a 30 minute Obliterate ritual while literally surrounded by exploding goblins?

Signed,
Zeth the Obliterator
 

kalindra

Adept
1) the goblins can't explode you because you're in a circle
2) if you screw up you backlash the ritual, so there's a meaningful penalty
3) you've spent a lot of build to be able to cast that Obliterate, meaning you've devoted time and effort to learning how to not be distracted by exploding goblins

I see your point, but it's not a 1:1 parallel.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
1) the goblins can't explode you because you're in a circle
2) if you screw up you backlash the ritual, so there's a meaningful penalty
3) you've spent a lot of build to be able to cast that Obliterate, meaning you've devoted time and effort to learning how to not be distracted by exploding goblins

I see your point, but it's not a 1:1 parallel.
1) The Goblins were exploding for a Destroy Magic. It was nuts. Goblins are rude dudes. Thankfully, none of them successfully blew up on the circle. GOOD JOB, GUYS!
2) Fair point.
3) A lot of people have spent a lot of build learning to identify potions/alchemy. So, I guess if we wanted to parallel, we could say that maybe Journeymen or Masters are capable of identifying during a combat situation, but the Basic Trained folks need to go somewhere safe and quiet, yah?
 

kalindra

Adept
1) Remind me to stay the heck away from those goblins! ;)

3) A lot of people have spent a lot of build learning to identify potions/alchemy. So, I guess if we wanted to parallel, we could say that maybe Journeymen or Masters are capable of identifying during a combat situation, but the Basic Trained folks need to go somewhere safe and quiet, yah?
Yep, that's basically the idea.
To simplify the arbitrary timers I suppose you could go with:
--RW lets you ID in 1 minute somewhere safe
--Herbal Lore/Healing Arts lets you ID alchemy/potions (respectively) anywhere
--Mastery lets you ID anywhere but extra fast

Edit: Amount of time is negotiable. But as it stands, I've never seen anyone attempt to identify something during combat, so without an additional reduction in ID time, the jump from 1 minute out of combat to 1 minute anywhere is pretty meaningless to me.
 
Amount of time is negotiable. But as it stands, I've never seen anyone attempt to identify something during combat, so without an additional reduction in ID time, the jump from 1 minute out of combat to 1 minute anywhere is pretty meaningless to me.
The addition of Merchant's Insight has some bearing on this particular train of conversation, so I'll mention that it allows for 15 second ID time. Picking it up is obviously a personal choice, but the existence of the ritual and the quick ID times it allows means that "only ID away from combat" and "ID anywhere you please" could be quite meaningful in general, and is something to consider.
 

Draven

Count
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Edit: Amount of time is negotiable. But as it stands, I've never seen anyone attempt to identify something during combat, so without an additional reduction in ID time, the jump from 1 minute out of combat to 1 minute anywhere is pretty meaningless to me.
I can't speak for anyone else's experience, but I can tell you that there was one fight where we started ID'ing dropped loot mid-combat because we were desperately looking for things that would undo...I think it was either Command or Paralysis.
 

norman b

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Another deficit to Armor and Traps, to bolster the in-combat/out-of-combat paradigm, is that you have to remain stationary, where as (I think) IDing consumables doesn't have that requirement. Meaning I can run around IDing the tags as long as I don't get hit? I would have to re-read the rules for it.
 

kalindra

Adept
The addition of Merchant's Insight has some bearing on this particular train of conversation, so I'll mention that it allows for 15 second ID time. Picking it up is obviously a personal choice, but the existence of the ritual and the quick ID times it allows means that "only ID away from combat" and "ID anywhere you please" could be quite meaningful in general, and is something to consider.
Good point--if you can ID in 15 seconds, being able to do it in combat would definitely be a useful distinction. I personally perceive 1 minute as just slightly too long for me to try to ID in combat--partly because it's longer than a bleed out count.

I can't speak for anyone else's experience, but I can tell you that there was one fight where we started ID'ing dropped loot mid-combat because we were desperately looking for things that would undo...I think it was either Command or Paralysis.
Ok, that must have been an interesting fight... :) I have only ever seen "potion roulette" with unidentified stuff. If the ID time were shorter, I expect you'd see people do that a lot more often.

In any case, in the instances where in combat ID occurs, the amount of time required to ID is significant. But out of combat, the time required serves only to be annoying. That's why my original suggestion was to make out of combat ID faster for those with the skill.

Another deficit to Armor and Traps, to bolster the in-combat/out-of-combat paradigm, is that you have to remain stationary, where as (I think) IDing consumables doesn't have that requirement. Meaning I can run around IDing the tags as long as I don't get hit? I would have to re-read the rules for it.
Also good point. Page 63 says "an uninterrupted minute," but as far as I can tell you can run around all you want.
 
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