Experiences of a Fighter in 2.0

Tantarus

Knight
One note, IIRC arcane armor still blocks Waylay in [0.9], and given that AA is granted by high magic...
I dont believe this is the case. Found this listed in change notes.


Arcane Armor Note that this ritual no longer grants Waylay Protection.

I actually think waylay is going to be insane in 2.0. You can do it at much greater reach. You can double tap anyone without a helmet and KO them with no possible way to defend. The last playtest I went to I took some as a warrior and they where more useful then my PTD effects. Combat gets crazy you just have to see a back in longsword range. Also between Waylay and Stun limb as a fighter you can get a dodge pretty easy. What else are you going to spend build on, a 50build prof?
 

Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
I actually think waylay is going to be insane in 2.0. You can do it at much greater reach. You can double tap anyone without a helmet and KO them with no possible way to defend. The last playtest I went to I took some as a warrior and they where more useful then my PTD effects.
One of the fighters did exactly this in our 0.8 cycle playtest to kill a "boss" creature. Double tap and done. The fight was ended almost immediately. He described the skill as too good, too cheap, and too easy to access for everyone. Unless the target was immune, it was more effective and harder to defend against than any of his fighter abilities. It was also cheaper to purchase than an Eviscerate, essentially provided the same outcome, and had no restrictions on quantity of purchase.
 

Tulbor

Artisan
Also between Waylay and Stun limb as a fighter you can get a dodge pretty easy. What else are you going to spend build on, a 50build prof?
Maybe, but the point of the thread has been "pure fighter". Now you're talking about buying rogue skills. I've actually forgotten that stun limb got moved into rogue abilities.
 

Tevas

Scholar
Marshal
Playtest Community Manager
Maybe, but the point of the thread has been "pure fighter". Now you're talking about buying rogue skills.
I was having a conversation about this with someone last night. I'm going to paste my opinion from that discussion. It is raw, not cleaned up, and not intended as a proposal. Just a perspective on the class, its role, and its lack of resource situation.

When I look at a fighter, I see someone who is hardy, resilient, and tough. Their job is to control a territory on the battlefield, and secure it so as to allow their allies to safely fulfill their roles. They are the first line of defense against enemy forces, and are the ones in the thick of things, standing up to all manner of badness that comes their way. People yell "shields to the front" because that's the role they expect fighters to perform. They want that barrier there. Fighters aren't the most devastating combatant, but can be relied upon to perform at a consistent level across the board. In order to do this, they need to be able to endure the effects that they'll be encountering as the first and easiest targets on the battlefield, and to have enough hit (body) points to sustain the damage that they'll take while keeping enemies at bay. These requirements to fulfill their role should be things that are naturally available through build bought abilities in their own Fighter tree. In this fashion, they are available to all fighters, of all levels, and can allow anyone who selects that class to perform those duties without the need for magic items or other forms of external reliance.

Under the 0.9 packet, and most of the v2 structure in general, fighters do not have the tools necessary to perform those functions. They fall immediately to spells, poisons, or elemental qualifier effects. When they do, the line is compromised, and the enemies immediately in front of them can move past their fallen bodies and prevent the "casters" they would need to rely on (in this rules structure) from removing the debilitating effects from them.
 

Mechtofd

Artisan
You -can- meditate that Slay back, as it did not resolve, but that doesn't help you in the moment as you'll need downtime to do it.
I do know that part and I appreciate the meditate skill my issue is the clear divide between warrior skills and magic that is not balanced by anything else. packet hits you anywhere? you are expending a defense period sword hits anything that isn't your body? welp I have to go meditate that skill back for the day.
 

Auric

Knight
Alliance Logistics
I kept trying to make this point to others, the removal of magic items alone is enough to completely change fighters. Who cares if you swing 30s when 1 spell will take you out of the fight.

I'm all for getting rid of items, it's in my opinion, the single biggest problem in the game. Scholars won't feel that loss as much, especially at higher levels as they can continue to purchase cloaks/banes through high magic. Fighters who currently rely on them for survivability won't have that luxury, and will be forced to yell scholars to the front :)
 

Saephis

Squire
Maybe, but the point of the thread has been "pure fighter". Now you're talking about buying rogue skills. I've actually forgotten that stun limb got moved into rogue abilities.
With the rules as written in 0.8 and 0.9, every Fighter build I've seen created by myself and others has one, if not multiple, dodges factored in. The availability and overall superiority of the skill ensures its place in a character build, with current rules. As Stun Limb is a "rogue ability" but also a fighter ability, you'll see more and more activity like this, with the as-written abilities pushing Fighters closer to Scout in XP-spends due to the numerous failings of "fighter abilities" and superiority of practically any other class ability.

In short: While Rogues may have the most Dodges, anyone who isn't a scholar will likely be working it into their character-builds, I suspect. This speaks volumes to the balancing issues of defensive abilities.
 

Kasuni

Squire
@Tevas and I were talking about this a bit last night, and we were kind of on different sides of the fence, but I'm open to hearing more general feedback and ideas on it.

Do others see a need for a fighter and other non-roguey classes to have access to build-bought skills that help them avoid taking damage from spells, Elemental effects, etc? Tevas specifically was mentioning it's something fighters should have access to, but I think if there is something for fighters, the other classes should have it too.

Basically, a variety of non-racially based "magic guard" or "Elemental guard" etc? Or other ideas?
 

Saephis

Squire
It probably bucks a lot of things in existence, but with the split of requirement to use a Parry for Spell Parry, what about taking it a step further? To join, say, Weapon Parry, there can be Spell Parry (Skill), Elemental Parry (Skill), etc., restricted individually on how many Parries one has -- They're still martially inclined, but as one's mastery over turning Weapon blows aside grows, their ability to turn other effects aside does. This, in turn, would "water down" XP expenditures into raw damage, as defensive abilities grow in availability, as well as making high level fighters not bound to magic item reliance.
 

Kasuni

Squire
It probably bucks a lot of things in existence, but with the split of requirement to use a Parry for Spell Parry, what about taking it a step further? To join, say, Weapon Parry, there can be Spell Parry (Skill), Elemental Parry (Skill), etc., restricted individually on how many Parries one has -- They're still martially inclined, but as one's mastery over turning Weapon blows aside grows, their ability to turn other effects aside does. This, in turn, would "water down" XP expenditures into raw damage, as defensive abilities grow in availability, as well as making high level fighters not bound to magic item reliance.
Can you explain your thoughts on how Parry would be separate from Weapon Parry, Elemental Parry, and Spell Parry, assuming the last 3 are all build-bought skills?
 

Cedric

Rogue
Marshal
I love the idea of fighters having the way to shrug off spells/elemental/poison especially with banes/cloaks going away. It allows them to spec more into "tanking" rather than having scholars with high magic do it. If you are really worried about it being too OP, you could always scale the cost on buying them. I like the idea that parries continue to be something more utility that allow you to tank for others, not just yourself.
 

Saephis

Squire
Parry becomes Weapon Parry, with all the same guidelines, costs, limitations, etc. that currently exist. But, to clarify its use to Weapons specifically, add 'Weapon' to set it apart from...

Elemental Parry -- Lower cost than Parry, but specialized towards deflecting attacks with an 'Elemental' carrier. Yes, this waters down the usefulness of Resist Element.
Spell Parry -- Like Elemental Parry, it carries a lower cost, and deflects attacks that are 'Spell'-types. Yes, this waters down the usefulness of Resist Spell (Formerly/Currently Resist Magic).
Poison Parry -- You get the idea, I think.

Wash, rinse, repeat for as many carrier-types as seem appropriate.

"Throttle" Parry-specialties the same as Parry currently is -- Weapon Proficiencies /2 = Max Parry Purchases; Parries / 2 = Each Parry Specialty.

Why each rather than pooled? Because at a double-down policy already, with the current day framework, you're looking at only a very small handful of these specialty parries, which allows caster-types still the availability of their Elemental Shield, Spell Shield, etc. in mass, rather than these.
 

Kasuni

Squire
So would that mean that in order to block a spell, the fighter would use both a Weapon Parry and a Spell Parry?
 

Saephis

Squire
Nope, continue/keep the detachment. Skills maintain skill independence.

Slay? Parry.
100 Elemental Smear? Elemental Parry.
Curse Death? Spell Parry.
 

Avaran

Baron
Ironically, while I like the soft cap, I would despise a hard cap

There will be an effective hard cap on static damage, though, and that will either be 10 Profs/BS or 11, depending on how nuts the individual is.

10 Profs is currently 285 build
11 Profs is currently 330 (+45)

And every Prof/BS after that costs an additional 45 build. At those levels, you're potentially looking at years between profs (unless lots of money is spent for season passes and pay-no-play, but even that will get more and more expensive to maintain any sort of reasonable build gain).

Also, given the propensity of 'rounding' in a fight, realistically it's likely never going to be above 8 (natural 10) because then you're not wasting build on damage that likely won't be taken because of rounding.

This cap limits the skills a Human Fighter can buy (Hobling can at least get Dodges), and you eventually end up with all Fighters looking the same (Paths don't count toward pre-reqs.

It allows them to spec more into "tanking"
Not really, because at some point, you are forced to buy more profs to meet the "Must have <x> number of Fighter build to buy" that next skill you want (add to this the fact that Fighter abilities aren't really meant for "tanking", and certainly not against packet attacks that aren't arrows/bolts). From the standpoint of build pre-reqs, Profs/Backstabs are designed to be that pre-req. With the new system you can, at MOST, get 2 additional skills of a type before needing to buy another prof.

For example:

Right now, I could get 9 Slays.
2.0 I could make that into 11 Slays.
I have 4 Eviscerates now, I could make that into 5.

In my mind, there isn't a sufficient enough of a disconnect between buying more static offense and being able to buy the "tanky" skills that you want.

As noted in other threads by myself and others, the new Fighter skills are sub-par AT BEST, and frankly not worth buying unless you have to pick between those and "off class" skills like building a Magic Shrub.

Also note that at some point, it's more build efficient for a Hobling Fighter to just buy more Racial Dodge than it is to buy any other defense because Racial Dodge is CHEAPER and BETTER than EVERY other Fighter defense you could possibly get. And the ONLY reason to get other Fighter skills outside of Prof, is to meet Prereqs for things like Evis, Stun Limb, and the highest number of slays/imp slays you can get.

To wit: I have to spend 34 build to get a Parry that ONLY defends against weapon strikes and magic qualifier attacks if I have Spell Parry rituals.

Dodge defends against weapons, special weapon attacks, all packets, and Spellstrikes. All for 10 build.
 
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Shades

Newbie
Parry becomes Weapon Parry, with all the same guidelines, costs, limitations, etc. that currently exist. But, to clarify its use to Weapons specifically, add 'Weapon' to set it apart from...

Elemental Parry -- Lower cost than Parry, but specialized towards deflecting attacks with an 'Elemental' carrier. Yes, this waters down the usefulness of Resist Element.
Spell Parry -- Like Elemental Parry, it carries a lower cost, and deflects attacks that are 'Spell'-types. Yes, this waters down the usefulness of Resist Spell (Formerly/Currently Resist Magic).
Poison Parry -- You get the idea, I think.

Wash, rinse, repeat for as many carrier-types as seem appropriate.

"Throttle" Parry-specialties the same as Parry currently is -- Weapon Proficiencies /2 = Max Parry Purchases; Parries / 2 = Each Parry Specialty.

Why each rather than pooled? Because at a double-down policy already, with the current day framework, you're looking at only a very small handful of these specialty parries, which allows caster-types still the availability of their Elemental Shield, Spell Shield, etc. in mass, rather than these.
What if we take some of this idea and build it into something like high magic for fighters (Different parries, but for each qualifier in the game. High cost Arcane parry would be cool.).
For rogues (so they get something too), what if they got something like Parry/Dodge, but it was by effect group, ie curse parry.
 

Avaran

Baron
I kept trying to make this point to others, the removal of magic items alone is enough to completely change fighters. Who cares if you swing 30s when 1 spell will take you out of the fight.

I'm all for getting rid of items, it's in my opinion, the single biggest problem in the game. Scholars won't feel that loss as much, especially at higher levels as they can continue to purchase cloaks/banes through high magic. Fighters who currently rely on them for survivability won't have that luxury, and will be forced to yell scholars to the front :)

Absolutely, 100%, thoroughly agree with this.

More people need to read and understand this post.

I played my Fighter from Level 1 and the first 7 years I played this Fighter, I had zero magic items. Now I have several. I've experienced both sides of things. I really REALLY like the MI change. With that MASSIVE issue out of the way, I think Fighters/Rogues should stay as-is (in terms of scaling prof/bs costs) and then we should see how they shake out.
 

Kasuni

Squire
What if we take some of this idea and build it into something like high magic for fighters (Different parries, but for each qualifier in the game. High cost Arcane parry would be cool.).
For rogues (so they get something too), what if they got something like Parry/Dodge, but it was by effect group, ie curse parry.
I am open to where that is going. I like the impact it would have. However, my only fear would be added complexity and added change, but if it's simple enough I could see that working.

So, essentially, a martial high magic equivalent of cloak for scholars?
 

Polare

Administrator
Alliance Chairperson
Alliance Rules
Moderator
Seattle Staff
<note: the following is Bryan's personal question/opinion and is not representative of ARC>

To help with the concerns about Fighters being weak to takeouts, but also trying to respect the class balance issues, how do people feel that a "reduce duration of bad stuff" skill would help address these specific concerns? This is independent of any Flurry/Paragon/MI/etc. thoughts.

For example, something like:

"Shrug It Off"
Fighter: 3 BP, Scholar 6 BP, others balanced between as appropriate
Prereq: Purchaseable once for every 25 BP spent on Fighting Skills
A character can use this ability when struck with a 10-minute or Line Of Sight duration effect. When used, the character calls "Reduced" and counts the effect as a 10-second duration instead of 10-minute or Line Of Sight.

This wouldn't stop damage (Fighters already have body/armor/Hearty/Fast Refit/Resolute against that), but would hugely mitigate the "sleep/confine/drain/enfeeble/etc. takes me out in one hit" issues *without* making them useless (like a Resist/Spell Parry/Dodge would do). It also strongly encourages teamwork and fighting together (someone needs to step up and hold the line while you're shaking it off for 10 seconds) which is thematic with the Owner intent for 2.0. A Fighter standing alone shouldn't be able to ignore a barrage of takeouts, just like a Scholar standing alone shouldn't be able to ignore a barrage of static weapon swings; but in both cases teamwork can help in these situations.

Or, to put it another way, "lets takeout effects still be useful without boning the Fighter who has no other defenses against it".

Thoughts? Would this satisfy folks' concerns without making yet another "nope, your ability is wasted for the day!" ability?

</note>
 

Kasuni

Squire
<note: the following is Bryan's personal question/opinion and is not representative of ARC>

To help with the concerns about Fighters being weak to takeouts, but also trying to respect the class balance issues, how do people feel that a "reduce duration of bad stuff" skill would help address these specific concerns? This is independent of any Flurry/Paragon/MI/etc. thoughts.

For example, something like:

"Shrug It Off"
Fighter: 3 BP, Scholar 6 BP, others balanced between as appropriate
Prereq: Purchaseable once for every 25 BP spent on Fighting Skills
A character can use this ability when struck with a 10-minute or Line Of Sight duration effect. When used, the character calls "Reduced" and counts the effect as a 10-second duration instead of 10-minute or Line Of Sight.

This wouldn't stop damage (Fighters already have body/armor/Hearty/Fast Refit/Resolute against that), but would hugely mitigate the "sleep/confine/drain/enfeeble/etc. takes me out in one hit" issues *without* making them useless (like a Resist/Spell Parry/Dodge would do). It also strongly encourages teamwork and fighting together (someone needs to step up and hold the line while you're shaking it off for 10 seconds) which is thematic with the Owner intent for 2.0. A Fighter standing alone shouldn't be able to ignore a barrage of takeouts, just like a Scholar standing alone shouldn't be able to ignore a barrage of static weapon swings; but in both cases teamwork can help in these situations.

Or, to put it another way, "lets takeout effects still be useful without boning the Fighter who has no other defenses against it".

Thoughts? Would this satisfy folks' concerns without making yet another "nope, your ability is wasted for the day!" ability?

</note>
I think this is a pretty cool idea with relative simplicity, and it seems like it would resolve a lot of the issues I've heard from people on why they feel fighters are too susceptible to takeouts. That said, I would be curious to hear from the fighters.
 
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