Golems vs Earth Casters: Comparisons

Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

I'm a little both amazed and amused that this has somehow turned into some kind of power comparison between celestialists in a Golem and earth templars or earth ritualists. I find the whole comparison a little absurd, but I'm going to jump in with a few quick points.

1) The new golems are I think clearly less broken then before. And if there are some people going slack jawed looking at the list of possible abilities and natural immunities, it may well be that many of those people don't quite know how Golems were statted before. Not everyone was privy to those details, and it was ugly. However, to say that Golems are less broken now does not mean that they are not still broken. And I'm not actually saying they are as yet. What to my mind made Golems so broken before was the need to stat a BBG, or really an entire wave battle, around their presence on the field. One templar or caster in a golem completely nullified the actual APL, he was the **** in class who constantly threw off the bell curve. This of course amplified the power creep/gap issues to the nth degree when they were around. Looking at their new stats I don't think we'll have quite that same level of problem anymore. But I reserve judgment, and will wait to see how this plays out in the field and how their presence affects monster statting moving forward. That to me was always the issue, not whether or not they could do cool stuff compared to my earth guy.

2) I think comparing combat ability between earth templars/scholars and a celestial in a golem is just inane. Celestial is the offensive oriented school of magic, Earth is protective. However, what I do think is important is that Golems give celestialists something to strive for. It gives them a distinct goal to work toward, accomplish, and then break out on the field with **** eating grin on their face. And I do wish Earth mages had something like that to pursue. As earth magic stands now, an earth caster can do pretty much all he'll be able to do once he gets into his teens. Sure he'll be able to more and more of it as he grows, but really once he gets his 9th level spells and a few levels of rit, there is nothing new coming his way. He's got the toys he's going to get, and from then on its just stacking up the quantity. I don't think just ripping off celesitials and giving them an "earth golem" is a good idea. But something for them to build toward and accomplish is always a good thing. In my mind it would be something counter to the transformation of undeath. Some kind of greater communion through which for a short time they become of font of healing and life energy. What kind of mechanic that would take, I have no idea.

and
3) Can we get away from this whole Earth shouldn't have any damage or give Celestial heals please. No, celestial does not have "heals". But they certainly do have a fair number of defenses and protectives. Should we take those all away so that Earth casters stay special? I don't think so, I think that would suck. Likewise, I don't think its unfair to say earth casters should have some kind of offensive ability. Our game after all is very, very combat oriented. And it's a little irksome that earth magic is structured in such a way that they can't always participate as much as other classes. And when I say offesnive ability I do not necessarily mean damage. What I have been predominantly arguing for in the earth magic thread is for their utility/cc abilities to scale better so they remain effective to at least some degree throughout all levels. Earth magic is an all or nothing game right now. But as far as giving them actual damage goes, most of the suggestions I've seen (and have made) are to give them a small damage option as a High Magic ability. High Magic to me is a very distinct and limited sub-sytem, and would hardly turn Earth casters into an offensive class. Given the requisites and costs of High Magic abilities, and the other options Earth mages have to choose from there, I don't think giving them a High Magic damage option could ever lessen the role of celestialists in our game or on the battlefield.
 

jpariury

Duke
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

phedre said:
you have to get to a pretty high level to high magic yourself into a golem and have it be a more effective fighting style than an earth templar with equivalent items. (like a 20 rit +8 undead slayer, earth aura, spellstrike earth storms, activate healing and purifies, or whatever fits your fighting style).
The idea that a 20 rit item is what it takes to be equivalent to a golem pretty much makes my argument for me. ;) While it's not the ideal build, for a single casting under difficulty 11, you get a DA +3, 3 9th lvl spellstrikes, elemental aura, and arcane armor 20. That's on top of effects that are otherwise unattainable - turning your wand and 1/3rd of your spells and scrolls into healing, 150 extra body, immunity to command/paralysis/death/necro/alteration/poison and rip from EPBW. This is done consuming 1 scroll, 1 catalyst, and some number of reagents that I'd wager amount to less than the equivalent rits. And this one casting can occur at 90% at less than 11th level.

Shhh said:
No, celestial does not have "heals".
Unless you're in a golem.
 

Avaran

Baron
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

I think the problem with Golems isn't necessarily with Golems themselves, but a combination of things.

Self-sustainability is what I see as the biggest issue. In a game that is supposed to be so heavily team-based, golems kinda throw all of that out the window. A well-built golem can still wreak just as much havoc as a couple of the old ones.

Where the self-sustaining nature of the old golems was pretty much entirely dependent on the caster's tree and or magic items, the new ones are propped up by hundreds of points of healing from wand charges, in addition to the spell tree under it and our oft-mentioned proliferation of magic items.

Like it or not, the best way to take out a golem now, is still the best way to take one out back before the changes -- straight-up, good old-fashioned raw damage.

But let's look at the self-sustaining bit a little more.

Let's look at the numbers again from my previous example of a 25th level celestial caster:

9-9-9-9-9-9-9-8-8

With a +3 Wand each charge is 12 Elemental <element>. With the pyramid above, that's (8+1+3 =12) 12*79 or 948 points of self-healing.

Now let's look at the tree, and assume our golem is healed by Ice...

Assuming mostly self-healing, that's...

9 Ice Bolts (15*9 = 135 points in healing)
9 Ice Storms (35 points *9 = 315 points in healing)
8 Elemental Ice Blasts ( 45 * 8 = 360 points in healing)
Total: 810

Grand Total: 1,758 points of self-healing.

This isn't counting magic items or even friends. Add to that the fact that if you use those points for damage, there isn't an artificially enforced penalty for doing so.

This still leaves Magic Armors, Spell Shields, Reflects, Disarms, Dispels, and Prisons available to the character.

A 25th level Earth scholar:


9-9-9-9-9-9-9-8-8

9 Cure Light (2*9 = 18 points)
9 Cure Wounds (5*9 = 45 points)
9 Cure Serious Wounds (10*9 = 90 points)
9 Cure Critical Wounds (20*9 = 180 points)
8 Cure Mortal Wounds (30*8 = 240 points)

Grand total: 573 points of healing.

The golem has 3.07 times more self healing, not counting magic items.

I think the biggest culprit is the ability to heal via wand charges, which effectively doubles the total available healing. That's practically the equivalent of allowing healing through weapon carriers. Seems silly to me.

But again, just my opinion. =)
 
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

Golems and the characters in them become huge targets. It's inappropriate to design encounters with specific treasure in mind, but not to allow intelligent enemies to prepare intelligently. If a golem has made a nuisance of themselves, they will become via perfectly natural in game consequences a major target. Once that happens, anyone who has done that will tell you they still need a team effort to survive. If they don't it's because they (1) have a team's worth of other magic items backing them up and (2) they are a skilled enough player to pull that off. Believe me, I'm talking about an enormous number of magic items and the ability to correctly catalog all of them in your head and plan, then adapt while under constant pressure. That's far more than just the golem being too powerful. It's a part of the equation, an important part, but not essential.

Remember, the wand healing is not something that is functional when surrounded by enemies. You cannot block with a wand.
 
Re: Ritual System Update Discussion!

It makes perfect sense for intelligent enemies to prepare for the particular enemies he knows are out there. The problem is what statting that wave battle up in prep for the golem has previously meant for everyone else not in one. As I said, we'll see if that has now been remedied.
 

Hammerfist

Artisan
I think that Dan makes a good point. You can have all the healing in the world, however while you are healing with your wand, you are not parrying, reposting, casting spellshields, magic armors or anything else really.
 
it only takes a couple seconds to call even 13 12 elemental ice charges, and there your golem is healed a lot. with the speed at which people can chuck effects, healing a golem is pretty convenient. while the fighter is refitting, the golem has been healed and is back on the line. and if the golem has a caster behind him healing him like a backpack healer, as it was pointed out, there is significantly more healing available
 

jpariury

Duke
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
Remember, the wand healing is not something that is functional when surrounded by enemies. You cannot block with a wand.
Why would I? I just turned the non-golemized Celestial casters into my healers. Even with the innate Reflect, wands are elemental.
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
Hate me if you want for saying this, but: This is all theorycraft until you have played a stored golem OR played on the field with one.

Until you meet one of those two conditions you are just telling me that Prot Paladins are OP in PvP by watching youtube videos or calling for a ban on Jace, The Mind Sculpter without ever playing against one.

This is NOT "easy." Sure, healing is more readily available in theory. But, in practice, it's not all that easy to spam heals on a golem while they are getting crushed. Sure, you can out heal some random damage.... but, healing doesn't help when a single eviscerate resolving breaks the golem and rezzes the player. Prison resolving. Subjugate resolving. Both are significant problems that healing can't fix.

Are Golems beast? Well yeah. Of course they are... and they should be. But, lets not throw around words like "easy" when its simply not true. All that does is tear down the players who are in them and kicking some tailgate in their toy while EVERY fight they are in is essentially a fight to survive.

Stephen
 
I have played against a golem once, but someone with a high celestial column who is going to be in a golem probably is going to prepare lots of magic armors and spell shields, as well as having some support with those things so that he/she won't take eviscerates. and subjugate isn't hard to get rid of right? especially if you have someone who is backing you while you hulk out.

I'm not the judge of what is OP or not, haven't had nearly enough experience. but subjugate and eviscerates aren't too hard to defend against
 

Togashin

Scholar
dragonfire8974 said:
I have played against a golem once, but someone with a high celestial column who is going to be in a golem probably is going to prepare lots of magic armors and spell shields, as well as having some support with those things so that he/she won't take eviscerates. and subjugate isn't hard to get rid of right? especially if you have someone who is backing you while you hulk out.

I'm not the judge of what is OP or not, haven't had nearly enough experience. but subjugate and eviscerates aren't too hard to defend against

You've fought against monster golems which are way different from PC ones.

And i dont know how many Celestial formalist have parries, unless your a Templar of course but then you have less elemental healing.
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
dragonfire8974 said:
I have played against a golem once, but someone with a high celestial column who is going to be in a golem probably is going to prepare lots of magic armors and spell shields, as well as having some support with those things so that he/she won't take eviscerates. and subjugate isn't hard to get rid of right? especially if you have someone who is backing you while you hulk out.

I'm not the judge of what is OP or not, haven't had nearly enough experience. but subjugate and eviscerates aren't too hard to defend against
Until you have played IN one or on the field WITH one (not against.... WITH) you simply cannot use that sort of language.

Sorry. It is not possible.
 
Again, you yourself admit you have never been in a golem, and had not had to plan around never hitting zero body. Damage, that much maligned thing, is FAR more dangerous to constructs than it is to anyone else, because they cannot absorb an infinite amount and then get a 1st level spell and start going.

In the midst of a hairy fight, I saw a golem parry a "13 normal". He had been separated from his team by the flow of the fight, the players were in a retreat, and he came up against... 13 normal. Without certain healing, without the option to prison and wait, he burned a parry on 13 normal. He couldn't even spare the time to cast a magic armor. He did not swing again. Just blocked until someone else came up and killed the thing for him, with a destroy undead, weirdly enough.

Golems are vulnerable in a way that many PCs simply cannot get their heads around without minimum trying to help one stay up. Ever been the one guy with an earth blade when a liche storms into town? Ever had the mojo doohicky of the week spirit link to you and something awful chasing you? Ever mouth off at just the wrong time, when everyone else has gone quiet, and the lizardman warlord was looking right at you? The golem is always in that defense first mindset, and cannot safely throw prisons, swing eviscerates, or anything else that might be reflected or baned or otherwise returned and need a defensive used. They cannot killing blow, because there is nothing to be done about a vengeance.
 

phedre

Squire
Yes, subjugates, eviscerates, shatters and destroys are scary as a golem. You know what's scarier?

Weapon damage. You can't incant those 12's fast enough to keep up with a guy swinging 10s, which doesn't require a high ACE card. If you're in a golem and don't have a shield, and something corners you? Prison yourself, prison/evo it like crazy, or drop your stuff.

I've been a backpack for a merc, it's MUCH harder than being a healer-backpack for a regular player. If the regular person hits 0 or -1, a cure light gets them up and out of danger. If that merc hits 0 or -1? You're picking up your friends stuff and making the trek to the circle.

And I have to say this, it'll be blunt but it's not meant to be snarky or mean: Welcome to the feeling of "I hate <monster type> and want to kill it but someone else is more effective at it ATM, and I can't heal myself while I fight it."

You can't always be the best at something... in one chapter, flame does double damage to undead. My c-caster is usually more effective against undead than an equivalent level earth caster (the earth storm still trumps my magic storm, but my flame wand can be thrown on-the-run). Saying that a c-caster in a golem will use every single bit of magic they can to heal themselves is like saying that an earth caster won't heal themselves but will save all those spells for hurting undead.

The grass is always greener, and chances are there's always a better streamlined way to kill something. But most of us build our characters based on experience with many enemies, so we're more well-rounded and survive longer.
 

Hammerfist

Artisan
jpariury said:
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
Remember, the wand healing is not something that is functional when surrounded by enemies. You cannot block with a wand.
Why would I? I just turned the non-golemized Celestial casters into my healers. Even with the innate Reflect, wands are elemental.
I think the point of the comment was in regards to single combat. Not group vs group. You are correct, a group of prepared celstial casters with the appropriate Golum is amazing. My point is that the single person can not heal themselves fast enough with a wand and continue to fight against an appropriatly statted melee opponent. The Wand is considered a two handed weapon, thus you can not call parries or ripostes while holding it. You also can not cast additional protectives while simultaniously healing yourself, unless that person is a politician and can epicly double and triple talk.
 
Okay, so I think what is really happening here is that the advent of the new ritual rules simply kicked up an old question/argument:

Should pc golems even be in the game?

I think with the new rules they're better, but, because they are still so powerful, more powerful than any other item in the game, and, as a result, are inherently unbalancing, they should be equally available to all classes.

What say you?
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
Deadlands said:
Okay, so I think what is really happening here is that the advent of the new ritual rules simply kicked up an old question/argument:

Should pc golems even be in the game?

I think with the new rules they're better, but, because they are still so powerful, more powerful than any other item in the game, and, as a result, are inherently unbalancing, they should be equally available to all classes.

What say you?
That would depend entirely on implimentation.

But, I would be down.

Stephen
 

Hammerfist

Artisan
Interesting thought Gary, I think I have to go with Steve on this one and see how it would be implemented. Technically they are available to everyone but only more available to those characters that have spent the time and focused effort to make them more available. I personally have no idea how to make it available to everyone without yet again minimizing the role of the clestial caster that can make it.
 
Hammerfist said:
Interesting thought Gary, I think I have to go with Steve on this one and see how it would be implemented. Technically they are available to everyone but only more available to those characters that have spent the time and focused effort to make them more available. I personally have no idea how to make it available to everyone without yet again minimizing the role of the clestial caster that can make it.
Just make the Spirit Store rit spell craftable, like it used to be.

Celestialists can still do it, sans comps, with high magic. And mages are still better at being in constructs, because they can heal themselves.

Also, just like we are suppose to never scale based on treasure, equally, and by the same logic, we should never shape a class around one particular type of item.
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
The spellcrafting change was primarily done to prevent fighters in golems from being a problem.

Would it not be better to just make the spirit store high magic ability available for earth as well?

Stephen
 
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