Golems vs Earth Casters: Comparisons

Avaran

Baron
RiddickDale said:
Avaran said:
RiddickDale said:
Until you have played IN one or on the field WITH one (not against.... WITH) you simply cannot use that sort of language.

Sorry. It is not possible.
I have both played in a golem (Ag and Hg) and played with my character's friends (at least one friend, often two) in one for multiple years now. This last weekend, we had 3 PC golems in my cabin, with an option for a 4th but he opted not to Spirit Store into one.

Does that count?
Yes.

That doesn't invalidate my point that someone who HASN'T done something similar to that isn't qualified to make evaluative statements on this.

Stephen
National PR
I agree. I didn't mean to imply that it didn't. I was just trying to give a general background for where my comments are (were) coming from.

Dr_Chill said:
Are you all C-casters?
We had ten people staying in our cabin this last event, I think 6 were C-casters, 4 had the choice to store into a golem, 3 of them did.
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
Yeah. You count. In fact... that scares me. Remind me not to make that cabin angry? K?

My ppoint here is not that Golems aren't powerful. They are. They needed a bit of balancing. And who knows. They might need more. But, I can't believe that it can be called "easy," they come with their own unique set of risks vs rewards.

Stephen
National PR
 

Togashin

Scholar
A group of first level c-casters with a bunch of shatter scrolls could take care of them..
 

Polare

Count
Alliance Rules
Moderator
Seattle Staff
Togashin said:
A group of first level c-casters with a bunch of shatter scrolls could take care of them..
Not sure about that. It would have to be a rather ridiculous amount of shatter scrolls. I'm pretty sure that my primary in a golem could easily wipe a significant number of first-level casters no matter how many Shatter scrolls they have.

When your wand will both (a) take them out in 1 hit, and (b) heal you almost half of each Shatter hit per packet, and you have (c) 150 body plus armor plus defenses... You'd better be talking an *army* of 1st level guys each with a dozen scrolls.
 

Mobius

Squire
What I'm really interested in is how the "Body Store" ability will affect the Golemancer culture. The major detriments to playing a Golem was the cost and the Looming Spectre of Auto-rez. What with the new Sacrifice and Body Store, it makes a Golem a lot more attractive, even taking into consideration the "powerloss" (which is actually a powergain since versatility is usually better than brute strength). Heck, you don't even need a Catalyst to build a Golem with Body Store and 25pts of other abilities. I think the "Golems are walking Coffins" time has passed.

Now, it's all a matter of cash-flow - ¿are creating Master Constructs cheaper than building the old Merc. Golem?
 

Jevedor

Fighter
Asheville Staff
Okay, i just reread this thread from beginning to end... I have previously stayed out of this one as I sort of feel its not my argument... but im gonna jump in now because I just want to say a few things..

Earth casters have rebirth... and its not actually all that hard to get... its only 5 high magic points... it doesnt take a ritual.. AND hey, you even get to decide if you even want it to go off.. I have one.. its awesome... BUT the point is A golem doesnt have that... I would venture to guess unless you are some crazy dual school wizard you will never find a golem based celestialist that has a rebirth... Should we then rewrite the entire system so that they can have that as well because that is unbalanced..? (that was sarcastic fyi)...

Golems are supposed to be uber awesome for celestialists. I get that this game idealistically wants to be balanced but at some point people need to look at this realistically.. it cant and wont ever be balanced be there will always because there will always be players who are better than others... and those players will have better toys, because they are better at getting them... They will make better use of them, because they are better players. If a less skilled player puts them self into a super awesome golem they are going to get tooled to a pulp... People judge these golems so harshly because the people we see in them are good players (not just characters) but players... and they wreck the field... you take them out of the golem, guess what! they are going to still wreck the field. But now you've taken away there fun toy that they played the game for and earned..

Why is it that this game has to be about who has the better stat card..? The game isnt reality, but it has to atleast mimic a realistic setting.. and life just isnt fair.. there is no supreme balance that controls that. I think the rules as they present them self in this game strive for fairness, but we should really stop expecting them to always maintain a perfect balance. AND this change just happened, cant we give it at least 2 months before we decide its so horribly Over powering....?

the example with the golem that was immune to ice earlier...
markusdark said:
What I considered a MBG (Medium Bad Guy) came in swinging something like 7-12 Ice. The golemed PC immune to ice simply turned his back and said, "Could you hit me a little higher and to the left? Got an itch there." Although cute and it made me laugh, I noticed that the NPC was now at a loss what to do with this cool stated critter. And granted, that is how you fight things and all - but to me something just seemed 'wrong' overall.
In essence how is this any different from a low level goblin running up on a dude with a PA? sometimes the monster cant effect the good guy.. sometimes the good guy cant effect the bad guy... its just part of the game..

if you want those abilities go do the thing that gives u the abilities. This thread makes it sound like if you hop in golem suddenly your every class and are immune to everything.. and its only perpetuating false notions, and blown out of proportion views of what golems are. Yes they are powerful but so is a smart Earth Templar, with a ribirth.

why dont we play the game to play the characters WE created instead of lusting after achieving every possible skill at the lowest cost? I can see the argument that a golem can be healed by a celestial caster.. but that hardly disvalues my ability to play my character... (not my stat card) but my character...

maybe im just seeing this form my own perspective and cant understand what all the hub bub is about. I hope this doesnt get taken out of context, as i think there have been many valid points in this thread.. but with all this back in forth on what is over powered and what is fair and un fair, I feel like the sense that the game is about playing character (not a stat card) is some what lost..

Any way i wanted to say all that.. you guys can go back to your debating.
 

Avaran

Baron
Polare said:
Togashin said:
A group of first level c-casters with a bunch of shatter scrolls could take care of them..
Not sure about that. It would have to be a rather ridiculous amount of shatter scrolls. I'm pretty sure that my primary in a golem could easily wipe a significant number of first-level casters no matter how many Shatter scrolls they have.

When your wand will both (a) take them out in 1 hit, and (b) heal you almost half of each Shatter hit per packet, and you have (c) 150 body plus armor plus defenses... You'd better be talking an *army* of 1st level guys each with a dozen scrolls.
Isn't Shatter 15 damage (Destroy 30)? Wouldn't your wand be healing 2/3 of that Shatter per charge?

I would venture to guess unless you are some crazy dual school wizard you will never find a golem based celestialist that has a rebirth...
Amusingly enough, the guy in my cabin that chose not to store into his golem is dual school and can get a rebirth.

I'm not saying golems should be taken out, I don't think, nor am I saying "Take away their toys." Heck, I benefit a great deal from golems. But I think right now, the self-healing from wands is what needs taking a look at, if anything is going to be.
 

Togashin

Scholar
Mobius said:
What I'm really interested in is how the "Body Store" ability will affect the Golemancer culture. The major detriments to playing a Golem was the cost and the Looming Spectre of Auto-rez. What with the new Sacrifice and Body Store, it makes a Golem a lot more attractive, even taking into consideration the "powerloss" (which is actually a powergain since versatility is usually better than brute strength). Heck, you don't even need a Catalyst to build a Golem with Body Store and 25pts of other abilities. I think the "Golems are walking Coffins" time has passed.

Now, it's all a matter of cash-flow - ¿are creating Master Constructs cheaper than building the old Merc. Golem?

Yes but you use up at least a third of your points on it.


I am curious to know how many people with golems already are going to take this?
 

jpariury

Duke
Jevedor said:
Earth casters have rebirth... and its not actually all that hard to get... its only 5 high magic points... it doesnt take a ritual.. AND hey, you even get to decide if you even want it to go off.. I have one.. its awesome
Those points spent on getting back from being dead might be better spent just not dying in the first place. I think I mentioned once before: any plan that requires you dying in order to justify the expenditure in resources probably needs to be relooked at. ;)
 

Jevedor

Fighter
Asheville Staff
jpariury said:
Jevedor said:
Earth casters have rebirth... and its not actually all that hard to get... its only 5 high magic points... it doesnt take a ritual.. AND hey, you even get to decide if you even want it to go off.. I have one.. its awesome
Those points spent on getting back from being dead might be better spent just not dying in the first place. I think I mentioned once before: any plan that requires you dying in order to justify the expenditure in resources probably needs to be relooked at. ;)
I think i should clarify the intent of my previous message.

I totally understand the argument people are putting forth about golems being to over powered, and that they may be broken in such a way that its silly to try to do anything else in the game.... Im not arguing for or against that . Spending build for a rebirth instead of a golem to me is part of the character you are playing.. and it shouldnt necissarily "always" be about trying to achieve the minmax best stat card that a streamlined c-caster going for a best built golem provides....

I think everyone is aware that golems are a tricky situation... clearly they do because they just implemented changes to try to fix them... we dont know yet if those changes are for good or worse, all the while I feel like some people are getting way to focused on it. Everybody comes to play the game for different reasons, and I know its very hard for some people to have as much fun when they know someone else can do what they want to do only better. But giving into thoughts that your character isnt good enough because some other guy has a better stat card is only self deprecating. It puts these other supposedly better characters up on a pedestal to be looked at in awe. But I know plenty of characters that are completely awesome with out the use of a golem... they make use of the stat cards they have built to define their own uniqueness and they rock.

Maybe my logic falls on deaf ears.... i dunno.. i just want people to be happy with what the game DOES provide them instead of pointing out and dwelling on flaws that are currently in the process of trying to be fixed. DO they need to be fixed, certainly... but lets not blow them out of the water and make everything else look so trivial in their shadow.
 

Alavatar

Baron
I've been keeping up with this thread but I don't know what the topic of discussion is since the OP is a post from another thread that was split.

So far, from what I can ascertain from the posts, the general consensus is that golems in and of themselves are not over powered, Earth Templars have been devalued by golems, and other proposals are still being discussed / voted on by the owners.

Does that pretty much cover it?

I am curious ... What percentage of a chapter's regular character-base (i.e. characters that attend an event consistently) consists of Celestial Casters that regularly Spirit Store into golems?

In Seattle, there is the potential for up to 4 golems out of a regular character-base of about 40 players. Seattle also has significantly more Celestial caster weight (i.e. more per capita) than what I have seen exhibited in other Chapters. In Oregon, which shares a lot of the same players (but different characters) with Seattle, there is only 1 golem.
 

Dr_Chill

Fighter
In SoMN, there is only one celestial formalist, and at this time there are no Golems (YET!).
 

James Trotta

Spellsword
Diversity Committee
To do this we would have to nerf golems quite a bit. I'm not against that but I think we need to add some stuff for the other classes too. It would be cool to give other classes some nice toys to play with.
Deadlands said:
Can we just address the problem/imbalance without creating new powers that generate new imbalances...pretty please, with sugar on top?

I think that golems are overpowered. I won't say that it's always easy to be in a golem but I will say that it often is. On this thread we had that golem asking the NPC to scracth his back with 12 ice.

Personally, I've been in an obsidian golem and in a bone golem. Now that my qualifications are out there, let me share my opinion.

I needed some situational awareness but I was able to keep myself out of golem popping situations without difficulty. Certainly if I were in one for 5 years running I'd eventually run into trouble but I think painting a picture of golems being in a fight for survival every fight is a bit much. That's especially true if you can be healed at all, much less heal yourself. If I can survive in a bone or an obsidian golem I think I'd do at least as well in a mercury golem.

So what do I suggest?

1.

Get rid of mercury golems. In the old days it was either bone golem or iron golem. Obsidian was a third option but was about as popular as the scarecrow. The iron was much weaker than bone but could be healed, making it a pretty tough decision as to which one you wanted - go for the power or go for the safer option? I don't think it's right that the most powerful golems are also the safest. Make wielding power even more dangerous :twisted:

2.

Give earth casters a high magic ability to store into or become a minor life or death elemental (doesn't have to swing death). If the elemental dies, the earth caster can go res (because power comes with danger).

3.

Give people with 4+ doges an ability to become a shadow or something.

4.

Give people with 4+ parries some extra special new armor rules so they can wear an uber suit of armor.
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
Jim,

No one can store in merc golems anymore. The original golems still exist, but they are slave golems.

Read the announcement a bit more closely. You'll see some things have change significantly.

Stephen
National PR
 

James Trotta

Spellsword
Diversity Committee
Gotcha. I was reading the 60 points next to QSS as them counting as a 60 point golem you could store into. Anyhow it remains to be seen if this new 60 point plan is better than the old iron golem or bone golem decision. Certainly differentiating yourself is nice. Golem recognition we should be bale to take care of even if it's a problem now. I'm sure a few people will break the system but we can tweak it when needed.
RiddickDale said:
Jim,

No one can store in merc golems anymore. The original golems still exist, but they are slave golems.

Read the announcement a bit more closely. You'll see some things have change significantly.

Stephen
National PR
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
James Trotta said:
Gotcha. I was reading the 60 points next to QSS as them counting as a 60 point golem you could store into. Anyhow it remains to be seen if this new 60 point plan is better than the old iron golem or bone golem decision. Certainly differentiating yourself is nice. Golem recognition we should be bale to take care of even if it's a problem now. I'm sure a few people will break the system but we can tweak it when needed.
RiddickDale said:
Jim,

No one can store in merc golems anymore. The original golems still exist, but they are slave golems.

Read the announcement a bit more closely. You'll see some things have change significantly.

Stephen
National PR
The current Quicksilver soldier was calculated at like 120+ pts.

Stephen
 

James Trotta

Spellsword
Diversity Committee
I think I saw that thread.
RiddickDale said:
The current Quicksilver soldier was calculated at like 120+ pts.

Stephen
Let's return to our regularly scheduled topic on whether the golem stuff gives celestialists something that other characters need an equivalent for in order to feel cool.

I, for one, think they do. When we had the old damage aura no longer white talk, I thought that was a really bad idea because it left only golems as a way to be immediately identifiable as a successful / powerful adventurer (out of combat of course). People argued that a nice costume should do the trick but it really doesn't. A nice costume might prove I'm a good player but in the game world it doesn't identify power. I think other classes need a clear path for being identifiable as having a achieved significant in game power.

Certainly other classes can do the golem thing but I'm not sure it's good that celestialists have an easier time of getting the only thing that allows a character to show off power just by walking around.

I'd like to see summon elemental scrolls used more often, but the way NPCs and everything work it's next to impossible for an earth caster to summon a chaos elemental to follow him/her around all weekend. It would be sweet way to show the world you're powerful though.
 
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