Gypsy accents

[Shandar]

Ok, we're more or less on the same page here, then, that plot *should* be able to more or less do what they want.

Do you feel, in the current state of rules and policy, that it is *permissable* for chapters to do these things?

 

[jpariury]

"Chaos magic is legal here as long as you do not raise undead."

5) yes, and I am going to visit this chapter with my necromancer

This is explicitly disallowed, per the rulebook - "Necromancy may be legal in some of the NPC countries that exist on the world of Fortannis, but it will always be illegal in the main area in which the game takes place.", pg 102.

That said, if you are of the opinion that LCO always takes precedence, why would it be untoward for the chapter to require non-gypsies not use a given accent? I mean, hey, it's an LCO effect, right?

 

[Robb G]

my oppinion = non gypsies coming from that chapter sure. non gypsies transferring in from other chapters, no.

technically plot can do whatever they want. if you want to skirt the necro rule, make chaos legal for a few games as a part of a story. i doubt the owners will shut down your chapter. at HQ, sarrs were a monster race for a whole season a few years back.

and you could force the gypsy accent thing if you wanted, but don't be suprised when people tlak about how much your chapter sucks and how they have really bad policies. in the end, if your plot (how ever cool or uncool it may be) doesn't appeal to people, you're doing it wrong.

 

[markusdark]

All chapters obey the rules, but each chapter can have its own feel, with its own monsters and cultures and in-game politics and such. Even the variations we are discussing here do not violate any rules.

My personal opinion is that things would be much simpler if gypsies and barbarians were just human cultures, and then we wouldn't have to worry about whether they are playing them correctly or using the accent right. But as long as we want to have racial skills bought with BP, they have to be races.

One of the games I play in, they don't have racial skills but rather cultural ones - basically where you're from determines what you are able to do. I'd suggest doing that here but the plethora of people saying "My Biata grew up in the land of Barbarians, so why can't we have the same thing?" would be a problem.

Sometimes when I read these threads, I wonder what happened to the spirit of the rules vs the letter.

 

[Vazhi]

Sometimes when I read these threads, I wonder what happened to the spirit of the rules vs the letter.

If it makes you feel better I have only really been replying because it's something to do when I have slow work days; I don't actually think there's a game ruining problem here. Discussion ultimately is never a bad thing in my opinion either though. Also, I agree that spirit of the rules is most important, and I believe I said as much in not so many words.

 

[jpariury]

my oppinion = non gypsies coming from that chapter sure. non gypsies transferring in from other chapters, no.

Your opinion seems inconsistent. LCO stuff is not an "opt in" kind of thing. If Purify grants a Bless due to some LCO effect, you don't get to choose to not have it do that by virtue of coming from another campaign. By the same token, if an LCO effect removes a specific accent from non-gypsies, you don't get to ignore it just because you're from elsewhere.

 

[Robb G]

yes you could. you set it up that way as the chapter.

chapter says, all local humans must take 1 rank of celestial because they are "Star touched"

incoming players do not adhere to this as they are not from that chapters locality and therefor not subject to it's LCO birth defect.

 

[Vazhi]

my oppinion = non gypsies coming from that chapter sure. non gypsies transferring in from other chapters, no.

Your opinion seems inconsistent. LCO stuff is not an "opt in" kind of thing. If Purify grants a Bless due to some LCO effect, you don't get to choose to not have it do that by virtue of coming from another campaign. By the same token, if an LCO effect removes a specific accent from non-gypsies, you don't get to ignore it just because you're from elsewhere.

It seems a fairly straight forward difference truthfully. Bless from a purify is a definite change from what someone might be used to, but it doesn't cause a character to have to significantly alter their roleplay and game experience in the same way that forcing people into positions where they are suddenly branded because of visiting a chapter whose *local* flavor dictates certain packets. Keep in mind, these people are from another continent. The fact that they get to be different can only serve to provide opportunities for roleplay situations based on someone being an outsider at first and perhaps a well-liked (or hated) traveller once people get a chance to know the person later on. If the person decides to make that chapter their home, well that can also be dealt with through roleplay well enough.

Plus I mean really, if you're born an albino in a land of albinos, some might find it to be an abberation if they come from a place that has never seen one; that doesn't make you not an albino suddenly when you visit that land from afar.

I believe that trying to force characters from other chapters that are having a good time and not hurting anyone into a square hole when they're a rectangualar peg is disingenuous and goes against the purpose of having a game for the sake of enjoyment. Furthermore, it osterasizes people and makes them not want to go back to that chapter and ends up hurting the game. This isn't a competition to see who can adhere most stringently to lines of text in a book.

Rules are important, but so is enjoyment as well as fair and balanced judgement by those interpreting them. The highest courts often make their decisions based on the intended purpose of a law and in doing so define those laws. Any good ruleset should be a living document.

 

[jpariury]

yes you could. you set it up that way as the chapter.

chapter says, all local humans must take 1 rank of celestial because they are "Star touched"

incoming players do not adhere to this as they are not from that chapters locality and therefor not subject to it's LCO birth defect.

I don't know that requiring skill purchases would be kosher, though you could probably give all humans a free celest slot. However, you're creating a false comparison. The LCO rule wouldn't be "local characters must adhere to -blah-", the LCO rule would be "all non-gypsies cannot use X accent". Much like Biata with Celestial items and sleeping in wards would not receive their racials or racial rp in HQ, regardless of whether or not they're visiting vs local, the lco effect would impact -all- characters.

Plus I mean really, if you're born an albino in a land of albinos, some might find it to be an abberation if they come from a place that has never seen one; that doesn't make you not an albino suddenly when you visit that land from afar.

Per Robb's opinion, it seems, LCO trumps all, so yes, you could have a local woogy going on that makes everyone blue if you wanted.

Rules are important, but so is enjoyment as well as fair and balanced judgement by those interpreting them. The highest courts often make their decisions based on the intended purpose of a law and in doing so define those laws. Any good ruleset should be a living document.

I agree. The spirit of the gypsy accent rules is that gypsies are immediately identifiable by their accent. Anyone using an accent reserved for that race, either to try and fool someone into thinking they're a gypsy, or even arbitrarily as part of their choices, is violating the spirit of the rule: gypsies are identified by talking funny in a specific way.

 

[Robb G]

I don't know that requiring skill purchases would be kosher

why? unless it's in the bylaws (that we are not allowed to read) you should be able to do anything you want. it's your chapter.

though you could probably give all humans a free celest slot.

sure. it just has to come off when the transfer out or visit other chapters.

However, you're creating a false comparison. The LCO rule wouldn't be "local characters must adhere to -blah-", the LCO rule would be "all non-gypsies cannot use X accent". Much like Biata with Celestial items and sleeping in wards would not receive their racials or racial rp in HQ, regardless of whether or not they're visiting vs local, the lco effect would impact -all- characters.

I'm not creating a false anything. I was giving examples of thing you could do to illustrate my point. LCO trumps all. You requiring incoming non-gypsies to adhere to your LCO accent rule, is fine. I was giving my opinion when i said you shouldn't do it to incoming non-gypsies, because when you mess with established characters from other lands in a negative way you run the risk of upsetting said players.

If Celestial Item wielding Biata want to shun HQ because of our LCO policy, they are free to, just as non-gypsies with accents who don't want to give them up would be free to shun the chapter with your LCO accent rule.

 

[Vazhi]

Plus I mean really, if you're born an albino in a land of albinos, some might find it to be an abberation if they come from a place that has never seen one; that doesn't make you not an albino suddenly when you visit that land from afar.

Per Robb's opinion, it seems, LCO trumps all, so yes, you could have a local woogy going on that makes everyone blue if you wanted.

Sure they could, but the fact of being able to do something legally doesn't really affect how good an idea it is -- not one way or another. It's perfectly legal to make bad decisions that make people not want to come back. Course, people might get annoyed at you for driving people off by forcing them to switch their characters to a different race packet. It's also legal to make a kick *** plot twist that everyone loves. I think the desire to host a good game tempers against people doing things that are well within the rules to do.

 

[markusdark]

I'm just wanting to make sure of something as it seems like some people are not on the same page with it.

If I ran a Chapter where all Gypsies were required to wear long noses, painted purple, and had to begin and end each sentence with a chicken cluck - a gypsy character visiting from another chapter would visit my game and would not have to cluck or wear any additional makeup. He'd wonder what happened there but he wouldn't follow the requirements of Local Chapter additional racial requirements.

Likewise I could play my character with a scottish accent in any other chapter and keep that accent, even if it was a local chapter racial for another race. What I am saying is that in order to make that local chapter run more smoothly, I'd choose NOT to use the accent because I would feel that the responsible thing for a visiting player to do would be to make that simple change. I wouldn't wear the nose and purple makeup nor cluck, but I'd be happy with dropping/changing the accent.

 

[Mobius]

depends on whether it was an ongoing effect or a birth deformity. that is, were "Cluckingtons" a disease Gypsies contracted in the land and it was still virulent then, in theory, any visiting Gypsy would be afflicted a purple proboscis. but, if 'twere part of the local Gypsy heritage, something congenital, i'd agree that visiting Gypsies would not be affected

as for the Swedish Dwarf, i still think dropping the accent would be unwarranted. Swedish Gypsies are a local affectation and a character from another Chapter/Land shouldn't and wouldn't be privy to local customs. it might foster a touch of IG confusion, but nothing more than a few seconds of indecision. though, of course, it would be your decision to use or not use the accent as you saw fit - what type of foreign accent a Gypsy uses is immaterial (barring LCO or history parameters) so long as they use some type of foreign accent

 

[Mike Ventrella]

None of which does a thing to help the game feel like it's part of the same world or that we are all part of an Alliance.

I am all in favor of plot flavors for each chapter, but you know, to me, a biata is a biata is a biata. A human born in Australia might have a different culture than one born in North America, but they're still humans.

 

[markusdark]

Here's an example of LCO coloring at SF that I like:

MWE's from the land of our home chapter have the ability to see what are called "Ancient Spirits" - powerful spirits of the dead that have decided to try an remanifest themselves in other living people. So a MWE that visits from another chapter will not be able to see them. This is a nice flavor thing for the natural born but doesn't impact the feeling of an Alliance.

I do believe that most examples here are taken to the extreme but it is a good discussion nonetheless.

 

[Vazhi]

None of which does a thing to help the game feel like it's part of the same world or that we are all part of an Alliance.

I am all in favor of plot flavors for each chapter, but you know, to me, a biata is a biata is a biata. A human born in Australia might have a different culture than one born in North America, but they're still humans.

But... Australia and America are part of the same world. These statements seem at odds with each other.

Here's an example of LCO coloring at SF that I like:

MWE's from the land of our home chapter have the ability to see what are called "Ancient Spirits" - powerful spirits of the dead that have decided to try an remanifest themselves in other living people. So a MWE that visits from another chapter will not be able to see them. This is a nice flavor thing for the natural born but doesn't impact the feeling of an Alliance.

I like that too... and from a strictly in-game standpoint there is precident for much larger scale things happening to a remote group of a race.

I think I was just reading how Stone Elves came about because of the decisions of a few of the now gone predecessors. That happening is so extreme though that they became as a whole new race with different rules. Relative to that the flavor changes to local race packets seem minor rp related tweaks that affect a few and only those few. It's not inconceivable that if those changes to that race of elves were a result of a plot line created for players to play out in a chapter then there may have been a time where gold elves from other chapters may still have been around and visited and in this hypothetical situation Stone Elves were loved so much that they replaced the golds on a national level through votes etc... Now -- no one is suggesting that the local flavor replace the existing stereotypes... just that these eccentricities be allowed, I think.

In the case of Gypsies it is complicated because only being identifiable by accent, culture, and clothing can be confusing, but any stranger in a new land isn't going to immediately know everything about the locals and the players will adjust once they know. If I go to a drag show, no matter how much a performer looks like a woman, I know it's not because of the context of the situation and where I am -- extreme example of course and I wouldn't advocate willfully disguising oneself.

I do believe that most examples here are taken to the extreme but it is a good discussion nonetheless.

I know I'm having fun.

 

[Mike Ventrella]

None of which does a thing to help the game feel like it's part of the same world or that we are all part of an Alliance.

I am all in favor of plot flavors for each chapter, but you know, to me, a biata is a biata is a biata. A human born in Australia might have a different culture than one born in North America, but they're still humans.

But... Australia and America are part of the same world. These statements seem at odds with each other.

All of the Alliance chapters are from the same world, too.

 

[Shandar]

Ok, so we've established that chapters should be able to do whatever they want with the rules and, for the most part, are allowed to do so as long as they don't mess with things that affect transferability directly (giving out extra build, free race changes, etc). I tend to agree with Mike that it can really inhibit the feeling of playing in an alliance, but if it's allowed then it's allowed.

Historically, though, this hasn't been the case. Some stuff has been all fine and good (see: variant humans in Ashbury, chapters allowing non-gypsies to have an accent, Dryads being hunted and killed in Oregon, Sarr being able to tell color by smell etc), while other things have gotten red-flagged and a "what's this I hear about x in your chapter" phone call (see: variant dark elves in Seattle, players claiming unusual backgrounds on the forums, and so on). It seems clear to me that the theory of chapter independence isn't being (or, I should say, *historically has not been*) consistently applied.

Why do players post rules questions here then get lambasted because their chapter is 'doing it wrong'? It seems to me there is no wrong way to do it as long as the players are having fun and it doesn't affect any other game.
Why do we have an Alliance Rules Committee? Since the chapters themselves are the end of the proverbial rules road wouldn't it be better to not waste these peoples' time with a bunch of pestering questions?
Why have a central communication hub at all?

You probably see where I'm going with this, so I'll stop there. Is this an alliance or a loose network of people who are all running the same game? Isn't it a bit disingenuous to sell this to our players as a national game if it isn't being run in a consistent manner? Personally, I'm on the side of a much more rigorous consistency (as you might have guessed) than seems to be enforced, but I recognize that it can be somewhat constraining to plot teams as well. There has to be a middle ground somewhere that emphasizes chapter individuality without opening up the rules to wholesale retrofit by the plot committees.

 

[Shandar]

Sometimes when I read these threads, I wonder what happened to the spirit of the rules vs the letter.

Mark, in answer to your question: Your assumption that the spirit of the rules is always readily apparent and just waiting to be adhered to is, in my opinion, wildly optimistic. In reality this is a set of rules that is ~20 years old, has been rewritten multiple times, interpreted every which way from Sunday, is full of stuff that "has just always been done that way", and is, by and large, ridiculously complex when you add in the fact that people who have questions and opinions play this game. The spirit of the rules is often far more obfuscated than you suggest, and you're doing people (especially the marshals) a disservice when you assume that questions are being asked in the name of rigorous application of the letter of the law.

 

[markusdark]

I guess that we'll just disagree on this point then. I personally find that more than half of the questions or rules discussions are along the lines of "how can I twist the letter of the rule in such a way that I can gain an advantage in the game?" The fact that there is a whole whooping 3 pages thus far dedicated to whether or not certain races are entitled to a certain type of accent and whether or not visiting characters should be held accountable to said entitlements seems to be simply trying to muck up the view. I've always played with the intent of the majority of the players enjoying themselves and not to what I, as an individual, am entitled to, no matter how I read the rulebook. Needs of the many and all of that - but I guess that just comes from running games. And also probably in part as to how I feel games should be run. Yet one more nail in the board of why I'll never run an Alliance game.