If you sell it IG should it be stealable?

The other thing to be said about that rather simple solution is that it almost by design requires not allowing OOG items to be sold for IG assets. If you want to sell brownies IG, you need to tag them, otherwise you can only sell them for OOG money. That way people can't stockpile juice-boxes and brownie mix to get rich quick. I paid a gold for a coffee the event before last. Coffee... It costs less to make a cup of coffee than it costs to make the coin I paid for it with. Man. But had someone of stolen it, I would've roleplayed the hell out if it, because in my mind, something purchased IG exists IG.

Which brings up another important point: While I can only speak for myself, my initial assumption prior to seeing one of these discussions was that anything purchased IG did, in fact, exist IG, and therefore could be stolen or destroyed. I still think that's a fairly reasonable initial belief, and it wouldn't surprise me if new players coming in and seeing that thought the same.

So this seems to require an official decision, and rules to cover it so that new players don't get themselves in trouble if, in fact, the food they may or may not decide to steal isn't tagged.
 
Saying it isn't currently doesn't clarify whether or not the current policy is correct.

The only thing you really need to think about when deciding whether or not the current policy is correct, is to remember that theft is an out-of-game, real-world crime.

(The ARB is very, very clear that non-tagged items cannot be stolen. No tag? Don't take it. End of story.)

THAT is the reason why non-tagged items aren't steal-able; add to that an insufficient rules system in place* (which I have previously noted) to deal with tagging non-standard game items (as all food/drink items are by definition simply because the game has no rules to support it), and you find us where we are now. That's my opinion anyhow.

All of that said, if someone were to come up with a workable solution, I'd be all for it.

*It's a good-faith understanding/contract that non-tagged items won't be stolen, and even tagged items (barring magic items, as magic item phys-reps become chapter property for their duration) will have the phys-rep returned as soon as possible. In short, the chapter specifically and the game in general has to worry about liability issues, insurance requirements, etc.
 
I think we're brainstorming a few good and fairly workable solutions here.
Not to open a can of worms here, but on the topic of legality, isn't selling food or handling it without a food-handlers permit/license illegal in some areas? I don't know the particulars of when and where it's required, but that should be considered (if it actually applies) before anything else, eh?
 
Avaran said:
All of that said, if someone were to come up with a workable solution, I'd be all for it.

Here is the solution, if you sell food/drink for IG money, I can take it. Done. Problem solved.

The issue I have is that people know that their food can't be taken so they leave it out, to abuse the rules. IG would they do this? I doubt it.

Question? If I dump a death elixir in it, then can I steal it since its tagged now? **This has been done in the past BTW**
 
So if all food brought to game MUST be paid for at logistics and become IG stealable, that will discourage some people from doing it. Others may suddenly NOT be able to even bring food to events. If I bring 40 sodas to an event but have to pay a 4 gold "game tax" (1 silver per) to logistics each time I do, I will do it far less often, if ever again. And "new" or "poor" characters won't even be able to do that, as they can't scrape the luxury coin together.

If I need to pay 1 copper for every tea bag I bring to game, I will likely stop bringing it. Largely because I don't feel like performing "tea inventory" before and after events when restocking my supplies.

I think this thread unfairly attacks food items. I know of leather workers who sell their wares, some for IG coin, should all leather goods be subject to the same rule? Ditto for most pieces of costuming I can imagine.

Fact is, some people will be ok with this. However, other people, such as myself who just wants to bring food to share with my friends, don't want people pilfering through it simply BECAUSE it's food.

Here's the biggest rub for me. If all other forms of PC to PC treasure, coin, and favor transfer are unregulated, why are we suddenly concerned about stealing non game property items. Frankly I am allowed to STEAL treasure from a player, and give it to a completely unrelated character for no reason other than to offload the hot item, and people find that perfectly fine with the game. Why can people not also just trade game items for non game items. Hi I'm Johnny new player, thank you for giving me extra gear Ms. Helga High-Level, I don't have any coin to compensate you but you can have this string of beads as a token of my friendship. These transactions are suddenly ILLEGAL... or Johnny must declare every piece of costuming he would ever think of giving away, when he arrives at game, to make sure it's tagged and legally paid for.


If any form of IG sales restriction were to pass I would IMMEDIATELY create a side "NPR donation" economy. Donate to my cause and you will receive a donation reward of <x>. You're not actually buying that Morning Edition Tote Bag, you're receiving it as a thank you gift in return for your minimum donation. The tote bag is not an IG item, not stealable and is NOT being directly bought from me. As long as people are legally allowd to tip people for singing / helping and/or give money to other players in an unregulated fashion for no real IG value transfer reason there is nothing barring the "NPR donation" economy to keep things OOG.

And before people cry fowl having all these non-game things around (like they currently are now), there is a large precedent about non game items being IG and targetable by effects. I can disarm your treasure chest, your cup, even your plate with a spell. I can poison your drink with a tag. However that does not make your personal property and/or food MY OOG property. That just means I've added an additional effect to it.

If you want to force every item around the game to be tagged, stealable, and IG property, awesome, That's a great RUST style game. Nothing is off limits except undergarmets, sox, and shoes.... go nuts you Lord of the Flies fans. Sadly, I won't want to play it, as it's not the LARP experience I am currently looking for.

As long as theft and "giving because I want to and for no other reason" are legal, sale for OOG items will be legal. You can't crack down on one without effecting the other, or removing OOG items from the game altogether. Frankly, I feel the system we have now IS the happy middle ground.

Some of us like the system the way it is.
 
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Craig, you don't have to go through all that. I just want to be able to take your brownies if you just leave them around. ;)
 
So I went back to the original post, and it helps frame more of the conversation (as it wandered a bit).

So the economy discussion has come up and I am curious about a particular point, if you sell it at game, should it be stealable? Before you jump in and say "untagged items can't be stolen," I know the rule, this is a hypothetical discussion.

It seems to me that if a sword (which is purchased with IG money) is stealable, then food, drink, etc. should also be.

A buddy of mine, JP, often brings up the point that a player can set out a plate of brownies with a jar that says ,"1 silver/brownie". You can steal all the coin but not the jar or the brownies without being accused of OOG stealing. That seems broken to me.

If you are going to bring something to make part of the IG world, it should be part of the IG world. I get expensive OOG items should be returned at end of game but I don't think things in the game world need special rules of interaction.

I would agree with the above (if it's there, IG, it's able to be stolen)... I would be comfortable with this ONLY if we removed all non-game-items from the game. You start the game with tags for your basic costuming "Pants, Shirt, Cloak" or what have you, and possibly even 1 change of costuming (These will be like sword or wand tages, you keep the rep, not the tag, if your tag is stolen you can't use the rep until you get a new tag), if you want to bring food or ANY other item IG it must be logged with logistics first. THAT will create the IG theft environment some people in this thread want. Dude, Billy-BadLuck got rolled hard, they took everything but his boots (boots and basic "undergarments (shorts and tanktop or undershirt level coverings) will always be legal, lets keep it PG folks :) )

I know some people would love this style game. There are days I'd think it'd be fun. And you'd NEVER have to worry about "can I steal that or not" because if it's IG it's stealable... just don't ruin the reps as those need to be returned OOG (just like if I lift your longsword and spellbook from you while you are sleeping in the tavern mid afternoon, I keep the tags you can get your rep back from logistics)

Here's the thing, other people would not like this game, at all. In an effort to find a happy medium we have the system we have now. Where SOME items are A-OK good to go stealable, and others aren't. Until we are in the "EVERYTHING IS IG AND TAGGED" game there will always be a "fringe line" of "but that should be IG too"... currently it's food... once all food is IG it may become clothing or baubles...

Or in other words "That person has a thing I can't steal that he can choose to trade for IG stuff, how is that fair?" will ALWAYS be a question as long as we are in this "compromise mode" of allowing Non-Game items to be in our game environment, and allow an otherwise unregulated exchange of coin among characters.

The answer to the bold question is: "The game world we have created is a compromise system that allows some things to be stolen but not others, this does create some disconnects at times, but that is the compromise we have made so that the largest number of players can feel comfortable and at home in the community we are trying to create".
 
Craig, you don't have to go through all that. I just want to be able to take your brownies if you just leave them around. ;)

As a fat person who enjoys knowing his brownies are safe, I'd rather you not be able to. I need SOMETHING to cry into in case you take everything else I have. :cool:
 
Is this really abused?

Is there anyone in the history of Alliance that he left out their food-4-sale unattended, found out that it was stolen, and then complained to a marshal (as opposed to just taking their lumps)?

Is making these items MORE stealable going to make the game better for everyone? Or just people who want to steal brownies?

I cannot help but think that we are approaching this wrong. We are at a phase of our organizations existance that we are trying to avoid rules that needlessly complicate the game. Do we really need a multiple paragraph policy regarding the potential theft of home made brownies and twizzlers?

I get the "slippery slope" arguement. I get that there is a very thin line between stealing the brownie and stealing the 2 silver used to buy said brownie. We have been dancing that line for years and *I* have not seen evidence that dancing on this line has been a universal problem requiring a multiple page forum thread to solve.

Stephen

*edited because my Gs got uppity and didn't want to go last.
 
As a fat person who enjoys knowing his brownies are safe, I'd rather you not be able to. I need SOMETHING to cry into in case you take everything else I have. :cool:

Plate of brownies vs a plate of gold...I'd take the brownies :D. Food trumps > every thing else.
 
Do we really need a multiple paragraph policy regarding the potential theft of home made brownies and twizzlers?

Not really, just this one line that states, "if you sell food/drink for IG money, I can take it".
 
I don't want my food getting stolen because people think it's for sale when it's not.

This will happen, to someone somewhere. And saying oops isn't cool... Real theft is not cool. Unlike stealing a sword, you can't return a plate of brownies once you and your friends accidently eat it.

Keep Pandora's box closed.

Sorry people, as long as some things are allowed to be non-game-items, there will always be a side economy of them for IG money. It's part of the compromise we have in our game world.

Edit to include:
If we change the rules it should be "please do not sell food or drink, if you bring it feel free to share but not for coin. NOT "feel free to steal food from other players if you think they are selling it"

and even then... there's nothing to stop the NPR donation economy to crop up around "free food". OR "I just gave you a 3 brownies and a soda, you don't have to, but tips are appreciated" Or... because I can give money to anybody for any reason, I guarantee you there will be payments for food they will just go "underground" because of the ban. OR you will see "cover charges" to go to a party in a cabin... you're not buying the food you're getting entry into a cabin, there just happens to be food in there.

This thread started with a solid question of "If you sell it IG should it be stealable?" I think I addressed that quite well here but has turned into "I want to steal food from other players."

That second issue is one where I will simply have to agree to disagree with you. I don't want people stealing food from me. Frankly I don't want people stealing from me either, but there is a certain amount of theft I have to be open to in order to play this game. The line currently has food on the "hands off" side, and I would prefer it stay there.
 
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It's a shame that either way its hashed, someone feels they're getting boned. We're not just talking about food. This includes anything brought from OOG and sold for IG coin.

Is the line just drawn at stealing? I'm getting the vibe that it is, and if that's the case I'm assuming players can still mess with your food. Poisoning and trapping only have IG effects, and we're worried about OOG trouble here.

If your brownies get trapped and blown up, I expect you to clean the table and put out a "new" tray.
 
It is a shame if people feel boned. but the compromise our game is built on I talk about here will always lead to that feeling, for those who think they should be able to steal whatever is currently listed as "out of bounds". This always leads to some amount of "well he just spent x dollars at a costume store/bakery/goodwill store and is now making IG coin for it. Yup... but that's the compromised system we use.

For me the line is drawn at OOG destruction. If you roll me and take my spiffy Hat, neato... I don't have my hat, but I may ask for the rep back so I can run to my cabin and "grab a backup". Likewise if you come to the tavern see my plate of brownies and run off with it... neato... as long as I can get my whole plate back, with none eaten unless you have my OOG permission. Somebody earlier mentioned rearranging food on a plate into the shape of an obscene gesture.... that's a case by case... if I have a pile of wrapped treats and you make a design (obscene or otherwise) ok... but if you are physically touching every unwrapped brownie in a pile of brownies... that's more of an OOG jerk thing to do for sanitary reasons.

Remember, even if you're just "pretending" to be a jerk, you're still being a jerk... so be careful what you do with other peoples personal property. If you're not sure if something crosses a line, you may want to consider not doing it and asking OOG first. OOG communication will solve so many of the problems listed here.

As far as IG poisons and traps, sure go nuts... worst case if they are "blown up" I may have an "identical plate" to put out and sell IG... or if I really want to play along I can even decide I have to eat them OOG instead of IG, but that's up to me (and possibly the local plot committee) and not the national rulebook.
 
But here's the thing: without an official ruling, as it is case by case, one marshal might say "oh, he blew up/poisoned your food? Sorry pal, can't do anything about it." And the next could say "you're a terrible person, now you need to compensate them/leave and never return".

No official ruling means case by case punishments which means unjust punishments half the time (either too lenient or too harsh) due to there being no standard policy in place.
 
If a marshal is kicking people out of the game for dropping a death poison into a brownie then I'd invite that player into NPC camp so they could watch me fire them.
 
That's not exactly my point. Just that without a ruling, punishments could be wildly disparate as it'd all come down to how that marshal personally felt about the issue.
 
Poisoning or trapping food, or really anything, in an IG area is 100% within the rules so there would be no penalty for doing it.
 
But here's the thing: without an official ruling, as it is case by case, one marshal might say "oh, he blew up/poisoned your food? Sorry pal, can't do anything about it." And the next could say "you're a terrible person, now you need to compensate them/leave and never return".

No official ruling means case by case punishments which means unjust punishments half the time (either too lenient or too harsh) due to there being no standard policy in place.

I can say, with certainty, that the act of poisoning food IN GAME is a legitimate action. There are rules for it. You will not be punished for it.

I say this as both a Marshal in CT and the head of National Customer Service.
 
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