If you sell it IG should it be stealable?
- Thread starter evi1r0n
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Sheakhan
Adept
My character is a brigand, a ruffian, and someone who has never had much in the way of income or possessions. It is in his nature to seize any opportunity to benefit himself, as he is used to that being necessary for his survival. If he's hungry and someone has left (IG) food unattended, it would be out of character for him not to take it. If he's walking through the woods and sees a weapon lying in the bushes, his instinct is to pick it up and stash it, as he has use for either the weapon or the money he'd get from selling it. It's not a matter of OOG dickery, I, Keegan, the person, would never steal food unless it was necessary to survive (or if you were a major douche and the situation warranted it). But my character would, and I feel that making something and selling it for IG profit and then allowing it to exist IG without following the rules for every other IG item, or worse yet, treating it as OOG, is abusing the system on the part of the seller and the customer both.
Pantzike
Scout
Mike, in your case I don't see you as stealing the food, I see you stealing the coin from a poorly guarded location.
If somebody is selling untagged items from a table, (be it food, baubles, or whatever) I'm not cool with people palming the item without paying... pay the person for the thing you are buying. If you then find a way to reacquire the coin... that's cool too, I see no problem with that.
If the coin is being kept in a tin and the character is hoping that the "honor system" is enough of a guard... then that character is in for a rude awakening. However, if I put down a plate of things, and turn around for a fight, and come back and somebody stole my non-tagged not game item things, I'd except to be able to go to a marshal and have them returned to me in full, un eaten (if it was food).
If somebody is selling untagged items from a table, (be it food, baubles, or whatever) I'm not cool with people palming the item without paying... pay the person for the thing you are buying. If you then find a way to reacquire the coin... that's cool too, I see no problem with that.
If the coin is being kept in a tin and the character is hoping that the "honor system" is enough of a guard... then that character is in for a rude awakening. However, if I put down a plate of things, and turn around for a fight, and come back and somebody stole my non-tagged not game item things, I'd except to be able to go to a marshal and have them returned to me in full, un eaten (if it was food).
Even if you were selling the items on said plate for coin? See, to me, in that case, you've already converted them to IG items (albeit nontagged) and therefore, they're open game. Let me put it this way: if it can't be stolen in-game, should we really allow it to be sold in-game?
Pantzike
Scout
I don't see it as an IG item ever. You gave me a coin. I happened to also give you this piece of non-game property. Yes they are related but they don't have to be.
You can steal game property. Items have item numbers carved into them or affixed to them to help denote they are stealable. Coins and tags are also stealable.
Anything else isn't. If you give me a gold and I give you a cookie. Awesome, but I don't ever consider the cookie a game item.
It opens up slippery slopes of game vs non game items. I can see your point but you should never have to say "so and so was PLANNING on selling that soda so I'm going to steal it." What if all the Orange Crème Soda's were to be consumed only by the seller but he had them in the same crate and you inadvertently stole one of those? In real life thieving, "tough", but this isn't real life, it's a game we play. And just like you have to "reverse-metagame" to forget things you can't remember if your character knows or if it's something you learned OOG somehow... I think it's safer to reverse-metagame and NEVER steal non-game items because it's more fair that way.
This is what I say with blanket rules.
Certain people may be fine with food theft, the same way certain people are fine with "physical roleplay" etc... but those should be the exception and not the rule, especially when discussed on a national basis.
Clarification Edit: To answer the question of "If something can't be stolen should we allow them to sell it".
Can you steal a favor in the future? Can you steal a massage? I've seen both of those be reasons to give a person money today. Why are those non-game exchanges ok, but people are allowed to pilfer food that I may or may not be selling?
And what if I bring food not intending to sell, but decide to sell some of it, but keep unsold parts just for myself of the final day of the gather. (That's not a hypothetical, that is a thing that I've done or thought about doing before) Rather than creating a "Flagged for Theft" system... it's easier to say "just don't steal food and/or baubles, but Game items are a-ok"
You can steal game property. Items have item numbers carved into them or affixed to them to help denote they are stealable. Coins and tags are also stealable.
Anything else isn't. If you give me a gold and I give you a cookie. Awesome, but I don't ever consider the cookie a game item.
It opens up slippery slopes of game vs non game items. I can see your point but you should never have to say "so and so was PLANNING on selling that soda so I'm going to steal it." What if all the Orange Crème Soda's were to be consumed only by the seller but he had them in the same crate and you inadvertently stole one of those? In real life thieving, "tough", but this isn't real life, it's a game we play. And just like you have to "reverse-metagame" to forget things you can't remember if your character knows or if it's something you learned OOG somehow... I think it's safer to reverse-metagame and NEVER steal non-game items because it's more fair that way.
This is what I say with blanket rules.
Certain people may be fine with food theft, the same way certain people are fine with "physical roleplay" etc... but those should be the exception and not the rule, especially when discussed on a national basis.
Clarification Edit: To answer the question of "If something can't be stolen should we allow them to sell it".
Can you steal a favor in the future? Can you steal a massage? I've seen both of those be reasons to give a person money today. Why are those non-game exchanges ok, but people are allowed to pilfer food that I may or may not be selling?
And what if I bring food not intending to sell, but decide to sell some of it, but keep unsold parts just for myself of the final day of the gather. (That's not a hypothetical, that is a thing that I've done or thought about doing before) Rather than creating a "Flagged for Theft" system... it's easier to say "just don't steal food and/or baubles, but Game items are a-ok"
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All good points, and that's also why I did make that note about being completely certain that the item in question was for sale.
I guess what this logically leads me to is the conclusion "disallow the sale of non-game items/services for coin (or other in-game benefits)." This makes me sad, because I think players who sell such things for coin add a lot of value to the game, but that's what makes sense to me.
I guess what this logically leads me to is the conclusion "disallow the sale of non-game items/services for coin (or other in-game benefits)." This makes me sad, because I think players who sell such things for coin add a lot of value to the game, but that's what makes sense to me.
Sita
Scholar
I suppose I'm looking at this too simply.
We are {more often than not} adults playing a game. Our characters are our creations, and we enjoy playing them. But that doesn't mean that Christine the real world thinking human still isn't functioning at the same time.
I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say that food/baubles that are not tagged, in-game items are not able to be stolen by an IG character. If you do, you're OG stealing. If it's a tagged item, like a bow/sword/magic necklace, then that item is fair game for you to steal. I'm pretty sure that if you are thieving you need to have a marshal present anyways {this may be for locked items/cabins, I'm not playing a thief >.> }. And with that tagged item, you really should be giving the phys. rep back at the end of the game session.
Because it's a game.
The lines blur horribly with food {what is and isn't in game?} and un-tagged items. Should someone be able to steal my costuming purse along with my coin? What if I bought that purse in game? See the patern? It's a game. We should be able to distinguish, as players, what is and is not kosher to do to another player. Even if we can justify it as our characters.
We are {more often than not} adults playing a game. Our characters are our creations, and we enjoy playing them. But that doesn't mean that Christine the real world thinking human still isn't functioning at the same time.
I don't think it's unreasonable at all to say that food/baubles that are not tagged, in-game items are not able to be stolen by an IG character. If you do, you're OG stealing. If it's a tagged item, like a bow/sword/magic necklace, then that item is fair game for you to steal. I'm pretty sure that if you are thieving you need to have a marshal present anyways {this may be for locked items/cabins, I'm not playing a thief >.> }. And with that tagged item, you really should be giving the phys. rep back at the end of the game session.
Because it's a game.
The lines blur horribly with food {what is and isn't in game?} and un-tagged items. Should someone be able to steal my costuming purse along with my coin? What if I bought that purse in game? See the patern? It's a game. We should be able to distinguish, as players, what is and is not kosher to do to another player. Even if we can justify it as our characters.
Pantzike
Scout
In response to the notion of ""disallow the sale of non-game items/services for coin (or other in-game benefits)."
This then gets into the very murky area of:
How do you define "non game services" services? Clearly you want to disallow "will massage for coin" and allow "will trade protective for coin" ... however, Is "will give you coin today for favor tomorrow" suddenly illegal?
How about donations? People donate to IG organizations (and just other players) all the time.
Also what about the lazy rich person saying, hey if you go fetch me <thing> I'll give you this coin. Would that be a non-game or game service.
How about singing a song and receiving a tip for it. Is that ok? Is it only ok if they have appropriate craftsman skills?
I'm not trying to use "far fetched" scenarios but the common ones I see take place dozens of times each event.
To follow up on this "The lines blur horribly with food {what is and isn't in game?} and un-tagged items. Should someone be able to steal my costuming purse along with my coin? What if I bought that purse in game? See the patern? It's a game. We should be able to distinguish, as players, what is and is not kosher to do to another player. Even if we can justify it as our characters."
I think we should be able to distinguish it as well. And we do. Game items are marked as such with item numbers and tags. Everything else is non game related and personal property.
My main point is, once coin is given to a Character, I don't think there should be much limiting how it is then exchanged from one Character to another at game. If you can outright steal it from a person, you should also be able to just give it to somebody else, and if you can do that, who cares if I get a cookie, or a sticker, or a massage in return?
This then gets into the very murky area of:
How do you define "non game services" services? Clearly you want to disallow "will massage for coin" and allow "will trade protective for coin" ... however, Is "will give you coin today for favor tomorrow" suddenly illegal?
How about donations? People donate to IG organizations (and just other players) all the time.
Also what about the lazy rich person saying, hey if you go fetch me <thing> I'll give you this coin. Would that be a non-game or game service.
How about singing a song and receiving a tip for it. Is that ok? Is it only ok if they have appropriate craftsman skills?
I'm not trying to use "far fetched" scenarios but the common ones I see take place dozens of times each event.
To follow up on this "The lines blur horribly with food {what is and isn't in game?} and un-tagged items. Should someone be able to steal my costuming purse along with my coin? What if I bought that purse in game? See the patern? It's a game. We should be able to distinguish, as players, what is and is not kosher to do to another player. Even if we can justify it as our characters."
I think we should be able to distinguish it as well. And we do. Game items are marked as such with item numbers and tags. Everything else is non game related and personal property.
My main point is, once coin is given to a Character, I don't think there should be much limiting how it is then exchanged from one Character to another at game. If you can outright steal it from a person, you should also be able to just give it to somebody else, and if you can do that, who cares if I get a cookie, or a sticker, or a massage in return?
Sheakhan
Adept
If we make untagged, unmarked, non-gold items personal non-game related personal property instead of clearly defining what items are in game and stealable than you run into the following issues:
How are we meant to react to these things in play? We ignore white headbanded players as if they aren't there, do we do the same for clothing? Pouches? Food and drink? Obviously not, everyone isn't running around naked with invisible inventories miming their meals. So these things MUST be in game to some degree.
If they simple can't be stolen or interacted with like tagged items, can we no longer pickpocket, tug on a sleeve to get someone's attention, poison food or drink? Do hits on clothed areas no longer count as you're hitting out of gameish items?
I think the answers to those questions are also likely a series of "no"'s...
So if we have a bunch of "kinda" in game items, how do we determine what they are, and where that line is drawn?
It was mentioned before that having a "flagged for stealing" system wouldnt work. Why not? How is that any different from the current "flagged for very specific but situational ig interactions" system we have?
Is it fair to require IG sellable items be marked as such but make them unstealable, even though the coin gained from them isnt? What's the difference in stealing that item or stealing the coin?
Is it so difficult to just accept that they are the same thing, and just place IG sellable items in a container or otherwise mark them as such and just watch your product like a responsible merchant?
There's nothing wrong oog with having your character refuse to pay somebody for a task or favor or item. That's roleplay. You invested your own oog energy, time, and possibly even money into attending the event, garbing up for your role, and performing the involved actions but you can accept that as IG. Selling brownies for ig coin and having them stolen or poisoned or rearranged on the plate to resemble a middle finger is the exact same thing.
How are we meant to react to these things in play? We ignore white headbanded players as if they aren't there, do we do the same for clothing? Pouches? Food and drink? Obviously not, everyone isn't running around naked with invisible inventories miming their meals. So these things MUST be in game to some degree.
If they simple can't be stolen or interacted with like tagged items, can we no longer pickpocket, tug on a sleeve to get someone's attention, poison food or drink? Do hits on clothed areas no longer count as you're hitting out of gameish items?
I think the answers to those questions are also likely a series of "no"'s...
So if we have a bunch of "kinda" in game items, how do we determine what they are, and where that line is drawn?
It was mentioned before that having a "flagged for stealing" system wouldnt work. Why not? How is that any different from the current "flagged for very specific but situational ig interactions" system we have?
Is it fair to require IG sellable items be marked as such but make them unstealable, even though the coin gained from them isnt? What's the difference in stealing that item or stealing the coin?
Is it so difficult to just accept that they are the same thing, and just place IG sellable items in a container or otherwise mark them as such and just watch your product like a responsible merchant?
There's nothing wrong oog with having your character refuse to pay somebody for a task or favor or item. That's roleplay. You invested your own oog energy, time, and possibly even money into attending the event, garbing up for your role, and performing the involved actions but you can accept that as IG. Selling brownies for ig coin and having them stolen or poisoned or rearranged on the plate to resemble a middle finger is the exact same thing.
Sita
Scholar
So, the rule book outlines this pretty well. {yep, I suppose that makes me a Rulebook-Thumping Turd ~.^}
pg. 147 under Stealing & Searching
" “Stealing” refers only to the in-game stealing of in-game items. Obviously, this means you
must be very careful when attempting to steal anything in-game.
You are never allowed to destroy anything in order to steal something (no cutting of purse
strings, no breaking windows to get into a home, no harming real property).
If you can somehow manage to open someone’s pouch and take the game items
within without that person noticing, then that is fine.
There are special rules for each type of in-game item and you are required to know them.
If you are caught stealing something incorrectly, then you are cheating—and ignorance of the
rules is no excuse!
Game Money, Magic Items and Jewelry:
You are always allowed to take whatever game money you can find in-game. When taking jewelry
or an item, always check to make sure there is a number scratched into it. If there is a number,
then the item is now yours. If there is no number, then the item is personal property and
not a game item.
If you are unsure, you may find a marshal with a game item list who can check to make
sure that it really is a game item. The major guilds will usually have this list.
If you have a magic weapon or item stolen, you must immediately head to the Mages’
Guild and turn over the magic item tag. Since this is a Logistical requirement that has to be
performed, you can go to the guild out-of-game. Not turning in a magic item tag from something
that has been stolen or lost is considered cheating.
If you have a piece of jewelry or other game item that you wish to make into a stealable
item, you must contact your chapter before the event begins. They will assign a number
to the item and figure out its monetary value. You will then be required to pay the in-game
amount that the item is worth."
So if you want your brownies to be stolen, go get a tag. Otherwise, do not steal something that isn't numbered as in game.
Coin is in game, and how it changes hands and for what is between players unless otherwise stated by a rules martial.
pg. 147 under Stealing & Searching
" “Stealing” refers only to the in-game stealing of in-game items. Obviously, this means you
must be very careful when attempting to steal anything in-game.
You are never allowed to destroy anything in order to steal something (no cutting of purse
strings, no breaking windows to get into a home, no harming real property).
If you can somehow manage to open someone’s pouch and take the game items
within without that person noticing, then that is fine.
There are special rules for each type of in-game item and you are required to know them.
If you are caught stealing something incorrectly, then you are cheating—and ignorance of the
rules is no excuse!
Game Money, Magic Items and Jewelry:
You are always allowed to take whatever game money you can find in-game. When taking jewelry
or an item, always check to make sure there is a number scratched into it. If there is a number,
then the item is now yours. If there is no number, then the item is personal property and
not a game item.
If you are unsure, you may find a marshal with a game item list who can check to make
sure that it really is a game item. The major guilds will usually have this list.
If you have a magic weapon or item stolen, you must immediately head to the Mages’
Guild and turn over the magic item tag. Since this is a Logistical requirement that has to be
performed, you can go to the guild out-of-game. Not turning in a magic item tag from something
that has been stolen or lost is considered cheating.
If you have a piece of jewelry or other game item that you wish to make into a stealable
item, you must contact your chapter before the event begins. They will assign a number
to the item and figure out its monetary value. You will then be required to pay the in-game
amount that the item is worth."
So if you want your brownies to be stolen, go get a tag. Otherwise, do not steal something that isn't numbered as in game.
Coin is in game, and how it changes hands and for what is between players unless otherwise stated by a rules martial.
Avaran
Baron
The difference is that Coin is:
- The property of the chapter.
- An in-game prop.
- A tagged item.
- Has an in-game value determined by its type (1 Au is worth a gold, 1 Ag is worth a Silver, 1 Cu is worth a copper)
The problem is determining the item's in-game value; there is no baseline for determining an item's value, and there certainly isn't a national standard for these things -- hell, each chapter has its own evaluate item list (a.k.a. merchanting list).
If you want to take the time to create such a list and then present to each chapter, commit to maintaining the list based on each chapter's individual needs, and then commit to supervising/manning a separate line at check-in for people who want to sell stuff, be my guest. And you'll need to find an individual who plays in each chapter for each chapter you don't attend games in.
Don't count on Logistics doing it either. In Oregon, for example, our logistics people rarely get into game on Friday nights before 2am, if at all, and spend a couple of hours on Saturday dealing with production, spell changes, etc. They don't need yet another headache to deal with, especially when people get upset when their Thing™ isn't as valuable as they think it should be.
Marshal Note before I go further. As it stands now you can _only_ steal tagged items, just want to make that perfectly clear while we discuss theory
. I can take the coin, but not your coin-purse (unless it's a magic item). That said:There is an inherrent difference to services, as unless you're trading cion for services OOG (Giving coin to someone for a ride to the game), the service is always taking place while you're in character. It's not Ben giving a massage to Queenie. It's Kelethuan giving a massage to Demona. The first is already frowned upon by the community, in part because it punctures the IG/OOG barrier. Which leads to...
There are really three kinds of items that we deal with here, the first is cut and dried, IG tagged items are stealable and the OOG physrep should be returned (with the proper caveats in the stealing section of the ARB). The second are non-tagged non-priced items, like my pants. I don't think anyone A. wants to steal my pants or B. if they did would think they could keep them. Then there is the muddy third category, non-tagged but priced items. These are items that have been priced by people, not by Plot or by the rules (it would be tagged/numbered otherwise).
These are things that have a self-defined value, and are being traded for IG coin. If I sell my pants to Nearly Naked Nick for 10 gold so he's no longer so nearly naked, he can reasonably assume he gets to keep the pants for more than the length of the event. Can someone now return Nick to his nearly naked form Waylaying him and stealing his pants? Coin changed hand, the OOG/IG barrier got broken, because an OOG item was traded for an IG item. This is where the friction cuts in... this is an item that is OOG, and unstealable by that.
I do make a distinction... and that is who sets the value of that time. If I spend all weekend in Monster Camp as an NPC I know I'm going to get X Goblin Stamps, an amount that has been approved and decided upon as the best compensation for time in the name of game balance. I also must pay a plot approved amount to receive that Magic Item off of a truncated list that has been decided upon in the name of selfsame balance. If I sell a batch of brownies, I get to set the rate of recompense. If we're going to have a functioning economy, which I think would benefit the game, that means that there will by necessity have to be some price fixing by plot. Having the compensation for food items function in a completely different manner than all other forms of compensation is detrimental to both the IG/OOG membrane and having a functional economy.
Sheakhan
Adept
That's a solid answer, but I don't think it addresses the actual issue. The actual issue being whether or not food items which are traded for IG funds should be considered IG, and to what degree. Saying it isn't currently doesn't clarify whether or not the current policy is correct. What I was specifically asking is what, in all reality, makes the theft of the coin vs. the brownie you'd pay for any different. I personally don't understand why it is fair for someone to sell something for IG reward while simultaneously being able to get around any of the risks that would be involved with selling some other -tagged- item.
Selling brownies on site you have an absolutely perfect scam: You can't be robbed of product, you can't be short-changed, you paid nothing (ig) for your product so everything is product, and you can set your own price because there is no set value.
Can I poison the brownies? Coat them in paste of stickiness? Trap the plate? All of these ruin the brownies for the seller.
Can I make a bunch of rocks out of foam, have them tagged, and sell them IG? Are they valid weapons, or does their coming from nothing make them "special"? Can they be stolen? Do rocks even have tags? Who would steal a rock?
I lost my steam, point is, I still don't get it and I certainly don't think it's just to allow people to trade what is, IG, a nonitem for IG funds when the only interaction anyone is allowed to have with that item being traded is an OOG one, or one that is beneficial to the seller and seller only.
Sita
Scholar
So back to hypothetical, I maintain that my problem with the proposed the whole idea is that of clarity.
A player will not know if an item is, in fact, stealable without a tag or number on that item. And even if they do "steal" a numberd/tagged item they should return the rep to the player. That's not possible with food. If you "trap" the food and the food is destroyed, we're back to going against already stated rules for item theft.
So, to sort of play off Ben's example. Chances are good that Nearly Naked Nick will have pants OOC. So, if Nick gives someone IG coin for pants, and the pants aren't tagged, no It Should Not Be Stolen In Game. If they are magic pants of 3 ever dodge, well... sucks to be Nick.
If Nick is also known as Nearly Starving Nick, and he asks Amory for some of her lasagna in return for a copper, Amory can sell him that lasagna. That lasagna isn't tagged. No one is forcing Nick to buy from Amory. And if someone steals that coin from Amory later, that's perfectly within game rules and established culture. But if someone steals Nick's lasagna and eats it, then they're destroying a personal item and that's against the rules.
It's an interesting concept, but ultimately it doesn't seem like the rules support theft of an un-numbered/tagged item regardless of whether or not that item has traded hands amongst players via IG coin, favor, or gifting.
Alternative being, all items being sold IG be tagged in some way, then making for damn sure you stole/trapped/screwed with a tagged item.
A player will not know if an item is, in fact, stealable without a tag or number on that item. And even if they do "steal" a numberd/tagged item they should return the rep to the player. That's not possible with food. If you "trap" the food and the food is destroyed, we're back to going against already stated rules for item theft.
So, to sort of play off Ben's example. Chances are good that Nearly Naked Nick will have pants OOC. So, if Nick gives someone IG coin for pants, and the pants aren't tagged, no It Should Not Be Stolen In Game. If they are magic pants of 3 ever dodge, well... sucks to be Nick.
If Nick is also known as Nearly Starving Nick, and he asks Amory for some of her lasagna in return for a copper, Amory can sell him that lasagna. That lasagna isn't tagged. No one is forcing Nick to buy from Amory. And if someone steals that coin from Amory later, that's perfectly within game rules and established culture. But if someone steals Nick's lasagna and eats it, then they're destroying a personal item and that's against the rules.
It's an interesting concept, but ultimately it doesn't seem like the rules support theft of an un-numbered/tagged item regardless of whether or not that item has traded hands amongst players via IG coin, favor, or gifting.
Alternative being, all items being sold IG be tagged in some way, then making for damn sure you stole/trapped/screwed with a tagged item.
Sheakhan
Adept
I can currently, under the rules, poison water and food. If no food is considered in game, what use is this ability?
Alternately, if someone leaves a tray of brownies and a tin, with a "silver per brownie" note, I cannot according to previous statements, steal the brownies. I can howevr steal the silver, pay for the brownies, then steal the silver I just paid.
Alternately, if someone leaves a tray of brownies and a tin, with a "silver per brownie" note, I cannot according to previous statements, steal the brownies. I can howevr steal the silver, pay for the brownies, then steal the silver I just paid.
There is a solution that was just sitting here staring me in the face. If you want to sell something IG, it must be an IG item, with an IG tag. A super simple list could be added to the merchant list:
A meal: 5 silver, Sweet: 1 silver, drink: 1 silver for example.
Because you've spent the IG coin for the tag, it's now stealable and sellable at whatever rate you wish to other PCs, but if they have Merchant they'll know how much that brownie really cost you to make IG, just like they know how much that 40 pt suit of armor cost to make. If you're selling untagged items, it's just like selling someone an untagged sword rep.
You're right though Adam, Logistics is already overworked. There would need to be an additional logistician who handles only Merchanting (which could get people through normal Logistics faster).
Inaryn
Knight
>.> I stole cookies. I ate a few, and put the rest back. Player selling cookies was not angry, nor annoyed. Player selling cookies rolled with it (and considered it the price for putting mint cookies out near a sarr.)
Really. Wheaton's Law.
Think about it. You're not *really* stealing those cookies so you can make the money instead. You're doing it to inconvenience the character selling them in game. Or just to cause a little mischief and levity. Politely tuck them out of game and leave the player an oog note so they can react accordingly in game without tripping about it out of game.
Really. Wheaton's Law.
Think about it. You're not *really* stealing those cookies so you can make the money instead. You're doing it to inconvenience the character selling them in game. Or just to cause a little mischief and levity. Politely tuck them out of game and leave the player an oog note so they can react accordingly in game without tripping about it out of game.