Item Conversion Questions

[tieran]

A question of my own: There is one line in the example that talks about rituals taking up multiple ritual slots on an item based on the per day uses granted by a single casting of the ritual. I just wanted to clarify that this was purely for additional per day uses and not for other tiered rituals.

For example, if I cast Assassin’s Edge for two uses, that one ritual counts as two for determining how many more rituals can be cast on the item, but if I cast a 30 point suit of arcane armor, that still only counts as one, yes?

 

[Mark of Chaos]

1. Yes.

For 1 & 3, you are basically creating a “bank” of points to use for that purpose. There are some exceptions for items and extenders, where if you have a preserved item worth 2000 points (without the value of the preserve), you can create an item worth 2000 points that lasts until the preserve runs out (and then gets converted to the new logistics period usage units once 2.0 goes live) OR you can split the item into multiple items using preserves (or not) as needed on each of the additional items.

To clarify, by my understanding: those two 300 point rituals need to currently be together on the same item in 1.3 to be able to combine their points. If they are two separate items then you have two separate 300 point pools. Their pools could be placed on the same rep as part of the conversion, but not combined to purchase one 301+ point ritual.

 

[tieran]

I had that thought too, but I don’t know that I can support it, other than a fairly strong “I don’t think you should get to do that” feeling.

The only definitive info I could find on it was the one rule on the conversion spreadsheet that says: A Batch may be moved to a new target, but if you do this you must move the whole Batch.

It then goes on to talk about splitting batches, but nothing about combining them.

I think the argument could be made either way really.

 

[Brandon Mintken]

I had that thought too, but I don’t know that I can support it, other than a fairly strong “I don’t think you should get to do that” feeling.

The only definitive info I could find on it was the one rule on the conversion spreadsheet that says: A Batch may be moved to a new target, but if you do this you must move the whole Batch.

It then goes on to talk about splitting batches, but nothing about combining them.

I think the argument could be made either way really.

So, I think the key thing for this is that when you are doing conversions, you are converting each batch separately. The instructions on the conversion sheet always refer to the original batch, and only talk about splitting from that batch. In my opinion, the instructions are pretty clear on this. The conversion doc instructions are :

1. Enter the existing Rituals on an item below exactly as they appear today. You may need to look up the "Ritual Level" from the scroll text itself.
2. Note the "Total Ritual Points for this batch" result.
3. Build out your new desired item, keeping the Ritual Points limit from the batch you already calculated in mind.
4. Repeat for each item you have to convert. When clearing a prior entry, set Level back to 1 and Ritual Name back to "None" for each item.
5. Submit your completed item(s) to the Logistics staff for the chapter in which the tag was issued. Tags issued by the National Chapter may be reissued by any Chapter.

The key things to note here, is step 3 is building out your desired item from the batch you just calculated, and that step comes _before_ step 4, being repeating for each item you have. If you follow the instructions in order, the batch from item 1 is already converted before you move on to the next item in step for and restart at step 1, therefore you would not be able to combine the batches to get more points, but both _could_ target the same item.

 

[tieran]

This is an excellent point.

 

[Feldor]

Is there any potential abuse from iterative applications of this from multiple playtests? IE, if I go to "playtest-chapter-A" and decide to be celestial scholar, so I turn my sword&ring&armor in to caster oriented staff; then on the next weekend go to "playtest-chapter-B" where I play a fighter, can I then convert my staff back to a sword with one pool of points?

Or is it the case that permanent item conversions have not been done yet, and will be done all at once to prevent something like this? (Do tags get labeled in anyway to note they are 2.0 compliant?)

 

[Ken]

Is there any potential abuse from iterative applications of this from multiple playtests? IE, if I go to "playtest-chapter-A" and decide to be celestial scholar, so I turn my sword&ring&armor in to caster oriented staff; then on the next weekend go to "playtest-chapter-B" where I play a fighter, can I then convert my staff back to a sword with one pool of points?

Or is it the case that permanent item conversions have not been done yet, and will be done all at once to prevent something like this? (Do tags get labeled in anyway to note they are 2.0 compliant?)

Guess it depends on the chapter. Denver hasn't been printing tags for playtest conversions, you just get a sheet with all your conversion info on it to cross reference against your existing tags if anyone asks to see them. You can register different conversions the next playtest event, which is probably a good idea if you're testing different builds.

 

[Brandon Mintken]

I've gone to a few different chapters and tried out different items for myself. So far the chapters I've gone to have had a sheet with my character card that describes the changes I made to the items, but the item tags themselves haven't been changed, and likely won't until final conversions with the original items. However, I'm not exactly sure how this would be handled in the case of someone stealing an item from you that was converted, but not printed, especially in the case of a batch that was split to multiple items for the playtest.

 

[Polare]

To answer some questions:

- Brandon has it right - each batch is independent. If you have two 300 point batches, you can move them onto the same item, but they must remain separate batches. This might mean they have different durations, are different Aspects, etc. etc. and that you cannot create one 600 point batch from them.

- Keep in mind that Ritual Slots are limited to 20 per *item*, not 20 per *batch*.

- To clarify, each use of a Ritual per day takes up a slot on an item. For example: Battlemage's Strike only ever takes up one Ritual Slot, no matter what Ritual Level it is cast at; its levels allow for higher level spells to be used through the single per-day charge. On the other hand, Assassin's Edge cast at Ritual Level 2 (to create two per-day charges) will take up two Ritual Slots on the item.

- Final item conversion will be set (based on the ORIGINAL 1.3 TAGS) once the go-live date has passed (Chapters are welcome to allow final conversion earlier for their own convenience, of course). Until then, Chapters can continue to allow items to be changed as players try different setups.

- The spreadsheet helper lets you pick specific Rituals at specific Levels. It is up to you to ensure that the total number of Ritual Slots on an item is not exceeded. For example, if you pick ten Assassin's Edge Rituals at Ritual Level 3, you'll exceed the allowable Ritual Slots on that item, even though you're only picking 10 Rituals from the sheet.

- To answer one of Ken's questions, Potency only ever allows one user per day per Ritual. Higher level castings of Potency give it more flexibility on which Element can be used. For example, if you cast Potency at Ritual Level Three, you could have a Potency that works for say Flame, Stone, or Ice. It's still just one use per day, but you get to pick which Element fits the moment best of those three when you activate the Ritual. If you had two such Ritual Level Three Potency Rituals, you couldn't choose the same Element to utilize for both of them on the same day (due to the limitations spelled out in the Ritual). The same is true of other Rituals that give multiple benefits at higher levels - Endure Elements only ever takes one Ritual Slot as a Passive ritual. Enchant takes up one Ritual Slot per use - so two level 1 spells ever would be two slots, while one level 9 spell ever would be one slot.

- The easy rule of thumb is "one slot per Passive ritual; one slot per use of other Rituals (whether Times Ever or per Logistics Period)."

Hope these help answer the questions that have come up in this thread!

-Bryan

 

[Feldor]

- Brandon has it right - each batch is independent. If you have two 300 point batches, you can move them onto the same item, but they must remain separate batches. This might mean they have different durations, are different Aspects, etc. etc. and that you cannot create one 600 point batch from them.

Does this mean each item will have a separate tag, so that one physrep will have 2 (or more) tags?

 

[Feldor]

So I see a potential scroll conversion issue with LCO scrolls.

So LCO scrolls are different in that they are bought with components and at a specific level. As the most extreme example, as written at the moment in the conversion sheet, you could buy for 50 gobbies a "level 1 spell store" that in the scroll conversion spreadsheet is worth 950 gobbies.

And even more benignly, a bunch of the changing scrolls are changing value some, from the old values. Some up, some down. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/16hLUP65UeZ2RCmOuGwVjtoMrfFkxvxVbvoBLrtOdmI8/edit?usp=sharing has the changing/removed scrolls, their old cost, and their trade-in values.

It seems likely that LCO scrolls should use a different conversion method -- either converting at their purchase price, or converting as if they'd already been cast and were magic items.

 

[Kitaruen]

The conversion rules are primarily for Restricted items and scrolls.

When it comes to purely LCO items I would speak to your owner directly as each chapter most likely has them valued differently as pick lists are chapter specific.

 

[Feldor]

The conversion rules are primarily for Restricted items and scrolls.

When it comes to purely LCO items I would speak to your owner directly as each chapter most likely has them valued differently as pick lists are chapter specific.

I understand what you are saying, but the published guidance at the moment says to put them in to the spreadsheet and go from there. Asking every owner to come up with a rules conversion policy for scrolls independently seems challenging. And even if we do that, then the published guidance for LCO scrolls should say "ask your owner how these are converting" and not to use the same policy as non-LCO scrolls.

And while there chapter specific lists, at least on the west coast, these seem to be fairly standardized.

 

[Polare]

So LCO scrolls are different in that they are bought with components and at a specific level.

That's not universally true. Different chapters do this differently - for example, I've had LCO scrolls both with and without components depending on the chapter.

In general I would expect LCO scrolls that come "with components" to translate to other LCO scrolls that come "with components", and vice versa. If that's the case, then the conversion sheet should work fine. This really does need to be a local Chapter conversation, however, since there is no National standardization of how Chapters might issue LCO scrolls.

-Bryan Gregory
ARC

 

[Polare]

Does this mean each item will have a separate tag, so that one physrep will have 2 (or more) tags?

ARC has previously issued "best practices" guidance that each batch should have its own separate tag. You might have multiple tags with the same physrep #, but each tag would have its own MI number as it's a separate batch.

This isn't a requirement, but it's strongly suggested for a variety of reasons that all boil down to "it makes some corner case situations much more straightforward to deal with".

-Bryan

 

[jdackow]

It is slightly frustrating that a 1.3 Spell store 9 is 25 point short of a 2.0 Spell store 9. On another item I have 25 points extra that I can not use as nothing is below 75 point. While I agree that batches should not be lump summed and then spent, it would be nice if in cases like this the extra could be applied, specially as the item would be staying the same.

 

[Gandian Ravenscroft]

Something that just came to mind: I'm assuming that times-ever Cloaks from Ritual Flaws stay as-is and aren't worth anything for converting into something else?

I always forget that I have a 1/ever Cloak Curse, a 1/ever Cloak Healing, and a 1/ever Cloak Alteration on spirit from rituals over the years.

 

[Feldor]

Something that just came to mind: I'm assuming that times-ever Cloaks from Ritual Flaws stay as-is and aren't worth anything for converting into something else?

I always forget that I have a 1/ever Cloak Curse, a 1/ever Cloak Healing, and a 1/ever Cloak Alteration on spirit from rituals over the years.

I think they all go away.

True Empowerment flaws and "Half Damage from X / Double Damage from X" flaws created via the Ritual Manipulation High Magic are removed from all items; if it is unclear whether such a flaw was due to this High Magic, the flaw should be removed by default.

And while the text says "items", I think its clear the intent should also apply to things on spirit.

 

[Gandian Ravenscroft]

They aren't from True Empowerments, though - a standard Flaw in the 1.3 rit database is "Target of the ritual (if it has a spirit) gains a once ever Cloak versus <Effect Group>."

I mean, I honestly don't care if they go away, but I wouldn't say they go away via the quoted passage about TE Flaws and Half/Double Damage flaws (since these Cloaks are neither).

 

[Sage of Legaia]

Cloaks and Banes as MIs are going away, so I highly suspect that non-HM Cloaks and Banes are going away when the rules drop even if they're the result of a Flaw; as a corollary to this, I think they're going to drop that Flaw from the potential pool so it doesn't come up in future.

I could be wrong on both counts, though, since I haven't read any updated Rituals yet to see how the Flaw list changed (if at all).