Item Conversion Questions

Stana

Scholar
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Ha, I asked this exact question to @Polare yesterday and got this response:

Question:
How should we convert 1/e cloaks/banes (ones through ritual flaws or TP, not ones from True Empowerment)
Are /ever cloak/banes being removed from the standard ritual flaw list?

Answer:
Existing flaws on a batch should stay as-is (other than True Empowerment ones, as you note).
There are no changes for Ritual Flaws. Especially since each chapter can (and often does) do their own.
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
An item given out at a recent game was a piece of armor. On the tag the description was "Armor: chest/back" with the flaw of "must be worn as intended". It grants arcane armor and some other things. In 2.0 would this be a valid target for rituals requiring armor?
 

Alkalin3

Administrator
Chief Technology Officer
South Michigan Staff
Marshal
An item given out at a recent game was a piece of armor. On the tag the description was "Armor: chest/back" with the flaw of "must be worn as intended". It grants arcane armor and some other things. In 2.0 would this be a valid target for rituals requiring armor?
Only if it's an actual armor tag with a value. And then you wouldn't be able to make use of the arcane armor because you actually need to be "wearing" it. The intent if you want the armor rituals you are wearing real physical armor.
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
That's what I thought. I just wanted to get clarification since the player who received it had assumed that since the tag said armor on it, it'd be a valid target.

I mean, it is real armor (it is a breastplate), its just providing arcane armor instead of an armor tag. And if evaluated in 1.3 would probably provide 12 points of armor; or 18 in in 2.0.

I'm also assuming that since functionally the enchants are on an "armor tag", you can NOT do something like have a 20pt suit with a bunch of cool armor enchants, and then "layer" a 60 point suit over that so you get the benefits of enchants while getting the larger armor value; despite the fact we allow armor layering of armor physreps. Because in that case you are counted as wearing the "60pt tag" and not wearing the "20pt enchanted tag". (Personally I think this makes ever giving armor as treasure hard, which is an unfortunate side effect.)
 
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Durnic

Squire
Owner
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Correct, you cannot layer two different armor tags together -- you must pick which one you are wearing. In your example, the player would need to choose the 60-pt unenchanted suit or the 20-pt enchanted suit.

Similarly, you cannot stack both real armor and AA.
 

Stana

Scholar
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Also remember: If you have arcane armor, you cannot use physical armor (even if it is higher value than the AA), per the scroll. All physical armor is just decorative at that point.
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
*nods* I'll admit, I was bringing the new armor layering rules up because they _are_ a change from 1.3, and if we wanted to change that ruling to allow more flexibility in treasure, this is the time to do it. We've established there is a potentially relevant change in rules. Its a matter of if ARC decides the ruling also applies to armor items.

As an aside, I also think our policy of armor enchants being tied to an armor tag, and not to specific physreps is in conflict with the rest of how we do magic items; and causes confusion. But we had that discussion several months ago, and I don't think things are going to change at this point in time.


Also remember: If you have arcane armor, you cannot use physical armor (even if it is higher value than the AA), per the scroll. All physical armor is just decorative at that point.
Now I wonder if there is an 'offensive' way to use a 5-pt suit of arcane armor, where you apply it to an opponent to reduce their armor to 5 when they'd normally have much more. Maybe using a charm, or putting an arcane armor on a weapon and disarming the opponent while leaving the weapon available for them to pick up. Or maybe one of those dragon magic folk who spell strike rituals, spell striking arcane armor 5...
 

Stana

Scholar
Seattle Staff
Marshal
Now I wonder if there is an 'offensive' way to use a 5-pt suit of arcane armor, where you apply it to an opponent to reduce their armor to 5 when they'd normally have much more. Maybe using a charm, or putting an arcane armor on a weapon and disarming the opponent while leaving the weapon available for them to pick up. Or maybe one of those dragon magic folk who spell strike rituals, spell striking arcane armor 5...
I'll admit, I immediately started building a plan for a BBG I play to do just this...
 

Ragnarok

Scout
Marshal
I'dd admit that I'm hoping that the way armor is identified as an MI changes with 2.0. With the likely large increase of armor becoming a large magic item for fighters (thanks to the new armor rituals which I love by the way) I feel that it may become a massive inconvenience for players to end up in this strange state of limbo with their magical armor when they take their helmet off because its simply hot outside. My hope is that the rules are amended in such a way that I may still use my super great magical armor even if I'm not also wearing by leather coat over it due to heat or some other factor. I understand that this creates other potential issues but alas, no solution is perfect.
 

Alkalin3

Administrator
Chief Technology Officer
South Michigan Staff
Marshal
Now I wonder if there is an 'offensive' way to use a 5-pt suit of arcane armor, where you apply it to an opponent to reduce their armor to 5 when they'd normally have much more. Maybe using a charm, or putting an arcane armor on a weapon and disarming the opponent while leaving the weapon available for them to pick up. Or maybe one of those dragon magic folk who spell strike rituals, spell striking arcane armor 5...
This seems like a round about way of just shattering their armor?

As per the ritual "Arcane Armor must always be refit before its Armor Points may be used for example if the character picks up an Item with Arcane Armor on it or if they were previously using a suit of physical Armor instead of an Arcane Armor ritual."

So if you hit them with a 5 point suit of Arcane Armor, they're under no obligation to refit it and use it.

I generally believe it's a bad idea as a plot team to machinate ideas to permanently deny folks who are rocking large suits of armor their bonuses, a great benefit to 2.0 is the amount of armor we've seen come back into the game, as it'll just have folks reverting to everyone wearing arcane. After all if plot teams are going to show up and try to force you into a 5 suit, might as well wear arcane all the time so at least you're fast.

And many of those folks have invested xp into wearing those suits.
 
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Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
The enchant arcane armor should disable the physical armor as soon as it is applied, even if it is not refit. (Otherwise, if you wore physical armor and arcane armor, it'd imply that when the arcane armor became depleted and needed to be refit, the physical armor would start working; and that definitely is not the case.) And its a way to get around indestructible armor, and remove the benefit for the entire combat (and if its like my chapter, for the entire logistics period, since no one keeps big suits around). I'll admit it sucks -- its the equivalent of a destroy formal magic effect that only works on armor.

I generally believe it's a bad idea as a plot team to machinate ideas to permanently deny folks who are rocking large suits of armor their bonuses, a great benefit to 2.0 is the amount of armor we've seen come back into the game, as it'll just have folks reverting to everyone wearing arcane. After all if plot teams are going to show up and try to force you into a 5 suit, might as well wear arcane all the time so at least you're fast.

And many of those folks have invested xp into wearing those suits.
There is a parallel argument here about arcane armor and physical armor as treasure. If magic armor is given as treasure, having it not be able to scale up to the ranks of wear extra armor a person has invested XP in sucks for them. I feel like with the addition of layering, it should be extended to allow you to use a magic suit of armor with a larger armor tag "layered" - so you can't wear less armor than the magic armor tag; but you can wear more. Thematically this makes sense, if I get a magic chain shirt, I should be able to use it while wearing a helm, gorget, greaves, and gauntlets.
 

Alkalin3

Administrator
Chief Technology Officer
South Michigan Staff
Marshal
The enchant arcane armor should disable the physical armor as soon as it is applied, even if it is not refit. (Otherwise, if you wore physical armor and arcane armor, it'd imply that when the arcane armor became depleted and needed to be refit, the physical armor would start working; and that definitely is not the case.) And its a way to get around indestructible armor, and remove the benefit for the entire combat (and if its like my chapter, for the entire logistics period, since no one keeps big suits around). I'll admit it sucks -- its the equivalent of a destroy formal magic effect that only works on armor.
Nah, you're misunderstanding. If you spend 60 seconds refitting the arcane, you wouldn't be wearing physical armor anymore. You'd be wearing arcane, and if it was taken to 0, you'd need to decide which one you'd want to refit. Historically magic items are always the a choice in Alliance. You can and do choose to use them whenever you'd like. Arcane Armor is no different with the exception that it needs to be refit to become active. So yeah. There's no real way to make if offensive like you suggested.

There is a parallel argument here about arcane armor and physical armor as treasure. If magic armor is given as treasure, having it not be able to scale up to the ranks of wear extra armor a person has invested XP in sucks for them. I feel like with the addition of layering, it should be extended to allow you to use a magic suit of armor with a larger armor tag "layered" - so you can't wear less armor than the magic armor tag; but you can wear more. Thematically this makes sense, if I get a magic chain shirt, I should be able to use it while wearing a helm, gorget, greaves, and gauntlets.
There are plenty of situations where items drop that players can't use or don't make sense to use based on their builds, character choices, and race. Dryads can't wear metal, and should avoid metal looking weapons. Fighters can't use counterspell items. When a magic club drops and no one has one handed blunt, they can't use it. Items only usable by specific races / class.

I don't consider any of that much different than differing levels of armor. Sometimes when a magic item drops, the rep sucks, that's just part of the game.
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
I thought the discussion above implied that the arcane armor scroll implied it disabled the option of using the physical armor for armor. Checking the text of the scroll definitely implies that you don't have the option of using physical armor if you are a recipient of arcane armor:
"Arcane Armor cannot be combined with any other source of armor such as Natural Armor or a suit of physical armor. The recipient of an Arcane Armor Ritual may choose to wear armor for decorative purposes, but they get no protection or armor points for it, even if the armor worn is greater then the protection the arcane armor provides."

So I don't think you could choose to refit to physical armor while wearing breached arcane armor, at least by the text of the scroll. Though I do agree that if magic items are always a choice, then it'd be impossible to use it offensively, so maybe you could. Its just weird because the scroll text explicitly covers the case of wearing armor better than arcane armor while having arcane armor on.



<re physrep issues>
Fair enough. I understand that situation well as a Hammer wielder, who has been offered loans of multiple different magic swords, but has never seen a magic blunt weapon...

Maybe the difference for armor is that the enchantment is on an armor tag with a specific number, which is fundamentally different than being a different physrep. There are solid parallels, but using the magic chainshirt example, you could have that armor tag reasonably be 15 or 55 points -- depending on if you expected the player to flesh out the rest of props that make up an actual full suit of armor. Alternatively, if you are asserting you can only wear the specific physreps that come with the tag, it implies an undo OOG financial burden on a chapter that wants to put a thematic high point armor suit in to game; which functionally means it won't ever happen. And independent of this, the players who could receive the armor would still be limited by who fits in to the chain shirt physrep.
 

Polare

Count
Alliance Rules
Moderator
Seattle Staff
In Alliance, if you want to switch suits of armor from any source, you must refit the newly chosen suit before you can use it.

Nobody can 'force' a character to use a suit of armor they do not wish to use. You can't throw a bracer at someone, have them catch it, then say "AHA! NOW YOU'RE USING A 1 POINT SUIT OF ARMOR, SUCKER!". The same goes for any other source of armor. The text in Arcane Armor:

The recipient of an Arcane Armor Ritual may choose to wear armor for decorative purposes, but they get no protection or armor points for it, even if the armor worn is greater then the protection the arcane armor provides.
is intended to deal with players trying to say "Nuh uh, I can wear Arcane and Physical at the same time and just use the Arcane once the Physical is hit a few times and gets lower" (or vice versa). Which, for the record, players have tried to argue on multiple occasions, necessitating language like this be put into the scroll. It's not intended to penalize characters for wearing physical armor.

There are of course always ways around this. If your Plot team handed out a Magic Item which had some sort of wacky flaw like "This item immediately Spirit Links to the holder. A character may not utilize any source of Armor other than this Item's Arcane Armor ritual while this Item is Spirit Linked to them", that would prevent you from using a suit of physical armor. It's also kind of a jerk move and might invite CS issues if it was intended to penalize a character long term in an OOG way that crippled their character concept.

-Bryan Gregory
ARC
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
In Alliance, if you want to switch suits of armor from any source, you must refit the newly chosen suit before you can use it.
This isn't actually in the 1.3 rulebook. We should put it in the 2.0 rulebook.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
In Alliance, if you want to switch suits of armor from any source, you must refit the newly chosen suit before you can use it.

Nobody can 'force' a character to use a suit of armor they do not wish to use. You can't throw a bracer at someone, have them catch it, then say "AHA! NOW YOU'RE USING A 1 POINT SUIT OF ARMOR, SUCKER!". The same goes for any other source of armor. The text in Arcane Armor:



is intended to deal with players trying to say "Nuh uh, I can wear Arcane and Physical at the same time and just use the Arcane once the Physical is hit a few times and gets lower" (or vice versa). Which, for the record, players have tried to argue on multiple occasions, necessitating language like this be put into the scroll. It's not intended to penalize characters for wearing physical armor.

There are of course always ways around this. If your Plot team handed out a Magic Item which had some sort of wacky flaw like "This item immediately Spirit Links to the holder. A character may not utilize any source of Armor other than this Item's Arcane Armor ritual while this Item is Spirit Linked to them", that would prevent you from using a suit of physical armor. It's also kind of a jerk move and might invite CS issues if it was intended to penalize a character long term in an OOG way that crippled their character concept.

-Bryan Gregory
ARC
Bryan what they are saying is that I can hit you with a Arcane Armor 5 and it be linked to you and that would nul your physical armor.
Wonder what would happen if you already have AA on or linked.
 

Feldor

Scholar
Marshal
I suspect if you already had an arcane armor on, you'd get to choose which one is active, since it specifies they never stack. The interaction with the physical armor was because the scroll was specifying that it made physical armor decoration only and unable to provide protection.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
<re physrep issues>
Fair enough. I understand that situation well as a Hammer wielder, who has been offered loans of multiple different magic swords, but has never seen a magic blunt weapon...

Maybe the difference for armor is that the enchantment is on an armor tag with a specific number, which is fundamentally different than being a different physrep. There are solid parallels, but using the magic chainshirt example, you could have that armor tag reasonably be 15 or 55 points -- depending on if you expected the player to flesh out the rest of props that make up an actual full suit of armor. Alternatively, if you are asserting you can only wear the specific physreps that come with the tag, it implies an undo OOG financial burden on a chapter that wants to put a thematic high point armor suit in to game; which functionally means it won't ever happen. And independent of this, the players who could receive the armor would still be limited by who fits in to the chain shirt physrep.
With a magic weapon the tag should have a magic item number on it along with a good description of the rep. With armor since the tag represents the whole suite, the armor tag has the magic item number on it. The magic item tag should have a description as well. If its 90F degrees and you have magical armor I would fully allow you to take your helmet off and still get the protection.
 

Renner

Scout
In regards to the AA and making it so people can't use their real armor.

Honestly if plot is looking to "break" a heavy armor build and not allow them to use those skills in such a way, I would not go to that chapter again.
 
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Tantarus

Squire
Yeah, that said, If this was actually the case it would mean I go rogue over fighter, if having a perm AA means I can never again use real armor. That would be a huge disadvantage. I am glad it isnt the that way.
 
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