Latex Coated Foam
- Thread starter Jaerin
- Start date
markusdark
Knight
jpariury said:
For swords, it usually doesn't but they are great at making custom requirements on their weapons (they could add a reverse fuller to thicken it there). The impressive part is that they don't use a latex coating. Their weapons are all foam but their style/design/makeup of the weapon doesn't have them tear from repeated use. Oh, they'll break down eventually and perhaps just a wee bit sooner than your average boffer but then again, you could always duct tape it back into repair.
markusdark
Knight
Tempest said:
Yeah, I always thought I was clever with some of my work then someone says "Can you make something like this?" and points to the first guy's site and I just whimper.
Maxondaerth
Squire
There almost in that category of "too pretty to fight with" cause you don't wanna get it dirty or ripped. I'll stick with my dragon gripped toobsticks and just make sure I can fight better than anyone who walks in with nicer looking swords than me .
.FrankManic
Artisan
That's important, cause otherwise someone else will kill them an take their stuff before you can. : |Maxondaerth said:I'll stick with my dragon gripped toobsticks and just make sure I can fight better than anyone who walks in with nicer looking swords than me
Maxondaerth said:There almost in that category of "too pretty to fight with" cause you don't wanna get it dirty or ripped. I'll stick with my dragon gripped toobsticks and just make sure I can fight better than anyone who walks in with nicer looking swords than me
I don't think I have seen your weapons, Jeff, but they must be a lot better looking than most. I have seen you fight...
j/k
They are very pretty to look at. For the most part, they are very sturdy to fight with. Not quite the "meat cleaver on a stick" a pole arm is supposed to be, but we play a high speed, light weapon/armor game...
Okay I admit that I am VERY new to the group, but I feel I have to voice my point of view on this.
I understand and accept that every boffer combat LARP is differnt in both their fighting styles and safety gudielines. But to say that latex weapons are better to worse then ducttape or cloth is a bit pointless in my view. The main safety concern (at least to me) would be the foam thickness and denisity, as well as the wear and tear of said foam after a good deal of use. What covers it is mor personal perference then saftey. I, myself like latex as you can do good detail for looks and it is waterproof. (I hate watered down weapons)
But has anyone ever thought that those weapons with pointy tips could be trimmed? Also how do you know where the cores really start or end with those weapons unless you have personally held them and tested them? I am only saying this because I have made seeral rather nice latex weapons and people screames that there was no waylay tip at the end because they couldn't see one, when in truth the bottem 3 inches of the blade (hence the 1 inch pommel and 2 inches of the hilt were coreless and made of soft open cell foam)
Okay I'm done with my somewhat pointless rant. Fel free to poke holes in my ill informed logic. (its the only way I'll learn)
I understand and accept that every boffer combat LARP is differnt in both their fighting styles and safety gudielines. But to say that latex weapons are better to worse then ducttape or cloth is a bit pointless in my view. The main safety concern (at least to me) would be the foam thickness and denisity, as well as the wear and tear of said foam after a good deal of use. What covers it is mor personal perference then saftey. I, myself like latex as you can do good detail for looks and it is waterproof. (I hate watered down weapons)
But has anyone ever thought that those weapons with pointy tips could be trimmed? Also how do you know where the cores really start or end with those weapons unless you have personally held them and tested them? I am only saying this because I have made seeral rather nice latex weapons and people screames that there was no waylay tip at the end because they couldn't see one, when in truth the bottem 3 inches of the blade (hence the 1 inch pommel and 2 inches of the hilt were coreless and made of soft open cell foam)
Okay I'm done with my somewhat pointless rant. Fel free to poke holes in my ill informed logic. (its the only way I'll learn)
Ezri
Knight
Most pre-manufactured weapons do not meet our minimum specifications on foam thickness or other construction details. I've been hit with latex weapons. When swung with the same amount of force they hit much harder than a comparable traditional boffer. This might just be because they're thinner, and as such the force is more concentrated into a smaller area.
Some do have 5/8" thick foam on what's considered the striking edge of the weapon, but that's not enough - the entire striking area (ie the entire blade) must be 5/8".
As a weapon marshal I'd consider passing a custom built latex weapon IF it met all the same spec's as a traditional boffer. I've yet to see one that does in person.
Some do have 5/8" thick foam on what's considered the striking edge of the weapon, but that's not enough - the entire striking area (ie the entire blade) must be 5/8".
As a weapon marshal I'd consider passing a custom built latex weapon IF it met all the same spec's as a traditional boffer. I've yet to see one that does in person.
Dreamingfurther
Baron
Some folks have learned how to apply latex coatings themselves. With this knowledge they can coat Alliance legal foam builds with pretty looking latex. When this is done you have a time consuming, but pretty and passable Alliance latex weapon. This process however is time consuming and a lot of work to learn, so I've yet to see it really pick up. However it can happen and is cool IMO.
Anyways, it is true that Kite spare core boffs can be lighter than any other weapons out there. Personally I feel the lighter the weapon, the less collateral damage it can do no matter how hard the swing, and the better you can play the game with it.
Anyways, it is true that Kite spare core boffs can be lighter than any other weapons out there. Personally I feel the lighter the weapon, the less collateral damage it can do no matter how hard the swing, and the better you can play the game with it.
I believe that the Calimacil weapons were mentioned earlier, but their website http://www.calimacil.com/technique.htm explains what makes their weapons different, going into some very explicit detail.
Long story short, the blades have no covering, either latex, cloth, duct tape, or other. The blade IS the foam. You'll also notice that all of their sword tips are blunted, and that the "cutting edge" is actually flat, instead of coming to a point. Here's a fun little video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uAFLC7KjiY
I am very curious about these Canadian-made weapons, but I have yet to meet anyone that has one.
In related news, I've recently begun experimenting with making flat-bladed weapons that conform to Alliance/Nero standards, as I am actually an International player. I held off on this project until I was re-inspired by Dan Simmons weapons, shown on the Int'l boards http://www.nerolarp.com/forum/showthread.php?t=662 . I asked him some questions, and he was very helpful, even sending me to the same instructions page that I was already using as a base model. http://home.clara.net/arianrhod/Aldebaran/DoItYourself/ . The idea is simply to use this as a base design for making the blade, but insure the minimal foam thickness, include proper thrusting tips, and cover with duct tape as per standard.
Basically, he used steps 4-6, except that he strongly suggests keeping the "cutting edge" a minimal of 7/8" thickness. I ended up trying 1/2" striking surface for these edges. Oh, and instead of using the liquid cement in the instructions, I took Dan's suggestion of a spray foam adhesive, found at Ace Hardware, which worked very well. For shaping the blade, I actually ditched the proven utility knife for a hot-wire foam cutting board from Hobby Lobby.
Unfortunately, I found that with my Wal-Mart camp pad, and 1/2" striking edge, it felt too firm when struck by it. I'm about to order some polyethylene foam sheets (The same material as the walmart camp pads AND our pvc pipe insulation foam) from http://www.foamandupholstery.com/polyethylene_foam.htm , and try again.
One of the issues here, and I think this is important, is that the current boffer-style construction method is easily taught and repeatable. The materials are inexpensive, common, easy to regulate, and simple to test for safety. Some people keep latching on to ONE aspect of boffer/latex weapon design, talk themselves breathless attacking/defending it, and then think that it proves their argument or disproves someone else's. In reality, it's the whole package deal that keeps boffers agreeable to our style of game.
Look, it's already hard enough to get into LARP. Once you get past certain stigma's or social hang-ups about larping, you then need to deal with the amount of time, money, and physical/mental energy that needs to be invested. Boffers keep it simple. Boffers keep it cheap. They keep the game accessible to students or anyone on a budget, and because anyone can make them, everyone can build them to represent their character. Plus, I can STAB with boffers, which is something of big deal to me. After all, if you can't STAB with your larp SWORD, then that weapon simply isn't worth it in my book.
My ultimate goal to design a construction method for flat-bladed boffers that's easily repeatable by anyone, without crazy chemicals (As with some latex weapons), highfalutin' tools/machinery, or a serious increase in time or money investment. A method that, if we included in the rulebook, wouldn't make a prospective player exclaim, "You want me to do WHAT?? With my skills/finances?!?!"
Sorry for the length, this tends to be how all my posts go.
Long story short, the blades have no covering, either latex, cloth, duct tape, or other. The blade IS the foam. You'll also notice that all of their sword tips are blunted, and that the "cutting edge" is actually flat, instead of coming to a point. Here's a fun little video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6uAFLC7KjiY
I am very curious about these Canadian-made weapons, but I have yet to meet anyone that has one.
In related news, I've recently begun experimenting with making flat-bladed weapons that conform to Alliance/Nero standards, as I am actually an International player. I held off on this project until I was re-inspired by Dan Simmons weapons, shown on the Int'l boards http://www.nerolarp.com/forum/showthread.php?t=662 . I asked him some questions, and he was very helpful, even sending me to the same instructions page that I was already using as a base model. http://home.clara.net/arianrhod/Aldebaran/DoItYourself/ . The idea is simply to use this as a base design for making the blade, but insure the minimal foam thickness, include proper thrusting tips, and cover with duct tape as per standard.
Basically, he used steps 4-6, except that he strongly suggests keeping the "cutting edge" a minimal of 7/8" thickness. I ended up trying 1/2" striking surface for these edges. Oh, and instead of using the liquid cement in the instructions, I took Dan's suggestion of a spray foam adhesive, found at Ace Hardware, which worked very well. For shaping the blade, I actually ditched the proven utility knife for a hot-wire foam cutting board from Hobby Lobby.
Unfortunately, I found that with my Wal-Mart camp pad, and 1/2" striking edge, it felt too firm when struck by it. I'm about to order some polyethylene foam sheets (The same material as the walmart camp pads AND our pvc pipe insulation foam) from http://www.foamandupholstery.com/polyethylene_foam.htm , and try again.
One of the issues here, and I think this is important, is that the current boffer-style construction method is easily taught and repeatable. The materials are inexpensive, common, easy to regulate, and simple to test for safety. Some people keep latching on to ONE aspect of boffer/latex weapon design, talk themselves breathless attacking/defending it, and then think that it proves their argument or disproves someone else's. In reality, it's the whole package deal that keeps boffers agreeable to our style of game.
Look, it's already hard enough to get into LARP. Once you get past certain stigma's or social hang-ups about larping, you then need to deal with the amount of time, money, and physical/mental energy that needs to be invested. Boffers keep it simple. Boffers keep it cheap. They keep the game accessible to students or anyone on a budget, and because anyone can make them, everyone can build them to represent their character. Plus, I can STAB with boffers, which is something of big deal to me. After all, if you can't STAB with your larp SWORD, then that weapon simply isn't worth it in my book.
My ultimate goal to design a construction method for flat-bladed boffers that's easily repeatable by anyone, without crazy chemicals (As with some latex weapons), highfalutin' tools/machinery, or a serious increase in time or money investment. A method that, if we included in the rulebook, wouldn't make a prospective player exclaim, "You want me to do WHAT?? With my skills/finances?!?!"
Sorry for the length, this tends to be how all my posts go.
I do see where you are coming from with making boffers simple and cheap and easy. I totally agree with you that there are a lot of poor students out there who can not afford the money or time to put forth effort for some passable garp, let alone waepons. But you, yourself are placing a stigmata on latex weapons almost as bad or worse then what a lot of people think about LARP.
In all honesty the only difference (material wise) between the normal boffer and a latex weapon is usinf latex rather then tape or cloth. Hell I made a latex weapon from just the materials to finished in my bathroom. (long story please don't ask me as to why I did that) The only "highfalutin' tools/machinery" I used was a foam paintbrish from walmart. It set me back a whoping 25 cents. The "crazy chemicals" is a can of latex from Home Depot for $6 and the amount in the can can coat a good 7 to 8 weapons (we are talking 36 inch blade long words).
But from the several email I got aobut the matter, and I want to thank those who did email me about this, I guess you are right. It is going to need to be on a case by case for every weapon.
As a final note
Gunfodder
The company Calimacil, makes weapons without a coating. The reason is because the foam they use is a silicon foam. They paint the mold then pour the foam into the mold. As the foam expands it bonds to the paint. As it is a self sealing foam the paint on is becomes part of the color of the coam and not just an added coating. The only draw back is that when the blade ripps, the weapon is fairly shot unless you know know how to seal them back together again. And the process I know of, it is almost cheaper to make a new sword.
Materials for making a silicon sword (after you have a mold) $20.00
Materials for repairing a silicon sword to anywhere legal again $15.00
Still if you don't know how to make pour mold weapons, they do have w really good product. But the weapons are not balanced that well.
In all honesty the only difference (material wise) between the normal boffer and a latex weapon is usinf latex rather then tape or cloth. Hell I made a latex weapon from just the materials to finished in my bathroom. (long story please don't ask me as to why I did that) The only "highfalutin' tools/machinery" I used was a foam paintbrish from walmart. It set me back a whoping 25 cents. The "crazy chemicals" is a can of latex from Home Depot for $6 and the amount in the can can coat a good 7 to 8 weapons (we are talking 36 inch blade long words).
But from the several email I got aobut the matter, and I want to thank those who did email me about this, I guess you are right. It is going to need to be on a case by case for every weapon.
As a final note
Gunfodder
The company Calimacil, makes weapons without a coating. The reason is because the foam they use is a silicon foam. They paint the mold then pour the foam into the mold. As the foam expands it bonds to the paint. As it is a self sealing foam the paint on is becomes part of the color of the coam and not just an added coating. The only draw back is that when the blade ripps, the weapon is fairly shot unless you know know how to seal them back together again. And the process I know of, it is almost cheaper to make a new sword.
Materials for making a silicon sword (after you have a mold) $20.00
Materials for repairing a silicon sword to anywhere legal again $15.00
Still if you don't know how to make pour mold weapons, they do have w really good product. But the weapons are not balanced that well.
There must be a few pioneers before latex weapons could be considered to be allowed in this game. Or at least so far as I can see. Personally, I am just fine with boffers as they are.
As a weapons marshal in a few chapters I can't see why I wouldn't pass a weapon just based on it being latex. If it could be used by players with no needed instructions, adhered to the 5/8" rule, wouldn't poke out my eye if I were running around a swimming pool with it and didn't look half bad to boot then I wouldn't fail it solely on latex. I'd at least take it to another marshal or maybe the owner to see what they thought. Someone is going to have to be willing to take those first failures though.
Maybe latex isn't even the answer. I am sure that given time and some thought a better looking boffer could be made. That's why we are the mammals with thumbs right?
--Chazz
As a weapons marshal in a few chapters I can't see why I wouldn't pass a weapon just based on it being latex. If it could be used by players with no needed instructions, adhered to the 5/8" rule, wouldn't poke out my eye if I were running around a swimming pool with it and didn't look half bad to boot then I wouldn't fail it solely on latex. I'd at least take it to another marshal or maybe the owner to see what they thought. Someone is going to have to be willing to take those first failures though.
Maybe latex isn't even the answer. I am sure that given time and some thought a better looking boffer could be made. That's why we are the mammals with thumbs right?
--Chazz
Ogunshi said:
I don't know what it's like where you are, but the last time I tried to explain to my 1st Sergeant what I did over the weekends, well, let's just say that it didn't go too well. Stating the negatives of latex weapons is NOT, "placing a (stigma) on latex weapons almost as bad or worse then what a lot of people think about LARP." How you can draw a comparison between the two is questionable.
I simply pointed out some of the downsides to latex weapons. The "highfalutin" machinery involves the custom foam moulding equipment used by some latex weapon makers. The "crazy chemicals", which I stated were used for some latex weapons, refers to the liquid cements (such as DAP or Evo-Stik) and chemical sealants that are are prescribed in many online tutorials. These products give off noxious, hazardous fumes and are volatile and flammable. I simply ask, is there a construction method out there for latex weapons that Alliance would feel comfortable printing in their rulebook?
For the record, I LOVE the look of latex weapons. As a game of medieval combat, the larp sword is a symbol of our hobby, and latex weapons bring some impressive visuals to the table. They just make everything feel so much more REAL. When I talk to someone who has some previous concept of what larping is, the first thing they mention are the pvc and foam boffers, often with snickers and derisive giggling. But when I showed pictures of latex weapons to my section sergeant, not a geeky guy by any means, he was impressed. He almost thought that we were a bunch of nutjobs fighting with real swords.
It's things like that which go a LONG way towards "legitimizing" LARP as a hobby. Maybe we shouldn't care, but I get a lot better response when I show videos of larps from Europe, say http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pW3TYTnK ... re=related , than when I show pictures or videos of people wearing jester hats, flannel pants, and standard boffers. Presentation matters, both to current and prospective players. Encouraging our players to have better looking costumes, armor, props, and weapons helps make for a better experience for all.
That being said, I would still rather use weapons that I can thrust with and are comfortable with everyone's safety concerns.
Thanks for the info about Calimacil, it's very interesting. Their website claims that the weapons are exceedingly durable, and I would love to test that claim. But we're talking some serious bucks here. So far, I like the idea of Iron Liege's hybrid weapons the best. They use latex or non-latex rubber for the crossguard and below, but some can also have cloth-covered flat blades with thrusting tips as well. Once again, these can get expensive.
Current boffers can be standardized. And if one fails safety check, it's often a cheap and simple fix. If your purchased latex sword fails, you could be out anywhere from $70 to $200. Even if you make it yourself for cheaper, that's a lot more time and energy that just went down the drain.
Like I said, it's the whole package that keep boffers popular. And until someone comes up with a latex substitute that doesn't have the same hot/cold issues, allows for thrusting tips, and doesn't cost and arm and a leg, then I think we'll be seeing our weapons forged in the mighty fires of "Home Depot" for a while to come.
First off nicely put. I do understand where you are comeing from and see your point.
I've had the pleasure of LARPing in Europe a few times and did manage to see how they make thier weapons, and a good number of them are home made latex weapons. I admit that they put a LOT of time money and effort into their LARPs. Even to the point that it is the only subject they talk about (and I thought I would never get sick of talking about LARP, but now stand corrected). While there I learned a LOT. The first is what they see as LARP and what we see as LARP are two different animals. Sure we all want to look as cool as them and have the numbers they do at their major events, but it just isn't going to happen any time soon. First is safety. Here it is sometimes pushed to a point beyond stupid, but with out current law system it had to be. This holds back a LOT of cool looking things.
Here are the problem stigamatas with latex weapons (at least how I see them). Several large boffer groups have said they are unsafe. When asked as to why, they couldn't provide an asnwer other then "Because I said so". This is not an answer. If it is a matter of foam thickness or density, that is acceptable to a point but doesn't help solve the problem. When we find out exactly why a latex weapon is unsafe, we can then start looking for answers to the problem. Sadly someone, somewhere said that they are unsafe and a good number of people have just blindly followed it and grouped anything with the word latex in it to be unsafe.
Next is the belief that making them is hard, expensive required special tools, takes too much time or een required a blessing from the LARP gods. Now a LOT of sites out there say that this way or that way is the way to make a latex weapon. They list special tools and materials that even the local geek at Home Depot has never heard of before. They like to say that it take days or even weeks of work in a controled enviroment with tools that are custom made ect ect ect. And those sites where you buy the weapons from say the same thing listing all these things that make it very hard for the average joe to do, and all but impossiable for a starving collage student to do. All so rather then looking into it you just opt for the easy path and shell out $100 and up for nice looking latex weapon.
I've had the pleasure of LARPing in Europe a few times and did manage to see how they make thier weapons, and a good number of them are home made latex weapons. I admit that they put a LOT of time money and effort into their LARPs. Even to the point that it is the only subject they talk about (and I thought I would never get sick of talking about LARP, but now stand corrected). While there I learned a LOT. The first is what they see as LARP and what we see as LARP are two different animals. Sure we all want to look as cool as them and have the numbers they do at their major events, but it just isn't going to happen any time soon. First is safety. Here it is sometimes pushed to a point beyond stupid, but with out current law system it had to be. This holds back a LOT of cool looking things.
Here are the problem stigamatas with latex weapons (at least how I see them). Several large boffer groups have said they are unsafe. When asked as to why, they couldn't provide an asnwer other then "Because I said so". This is not an answer. If it is a matter of foam thickness or density, that is acceptable to a point but doesn't help solve the problem. When we find out exactly why a latex weapon is unsafe, we can then start looking for answers to the problem. Sadly someone, somewhere said that they are unsafe and a good number of people have just blindly followed it and grouped anything with the word latex in it to be unsafe.
Next is the belief that making them is hard, expensive required special tools, takes too much time or een required a blessing from the LARP gods. Now a LOT of sites out there say that this way or that way is the way to make a latex weapon. They list special tools and materials that even the local geek at Home Depot has never heard of before. They like to say that it take days or even weeks of work in a controled enviroment with tools that are custom made ect ect ect. And those sites where you buy the weapons from say the same thing listing all these things that make it very hard for the average joe to do, and all but impossiable for a starving collage student to do. All so rather then looking into it you just opt for the easy path and shell out $100 and up for nice looking latex weapon.
Maxondaerth
Squire
Please, stop using the word Stigmata, it's not what you think. You mean to say stigma, HUGE difference.
