Magic Items

Alavatar

Baron
tieran said:
What if we just removed Expanded Enchantment (i.e. per day activates) from the game entirely (along with some other changes, or not)

This ritual is the cause of much of the pocket scholar hullabaloo anyway.

Can the ritual, let people trade in their existing per day items for other magical effects based on the already existing PP values in the treasure policy.

Take out Damage Aura, replace it with Magic Aura (or something similar) with no damage modifiers, just gives a magic carrier (basically exactly duplicating elemental aura & earth/chaos aura). Compensate with magic PP based on dropping to a +0 DA.

Leave in Enchant (times ever items), make the duration of times ever items until used.

Leave in Spell Store, but force it to be incanted (with or without activate).

Remove Extend Enchantment (1 year duration ritual) and give most rituals a base duration of 1 year.

Change duration on Store Ability to until used (to bring even with Enchant).
I like this, actually.

Also, I would be in favor of making activatable magic items (Enchant and Spell Store, anyways) used similar to scrolls in that you need to touch the packet to it while stating the incant in order to activate it.

And to everyone saying, "Magic items are a reward to people who do stuff for the good of the game" I ask: Why do people need IG rewards for OOG work? Why can't there be more OOG rewards?
 

doverman

Spellsword
What kind of oog rewards would you suggest? Most chapters can't afford to pay for what gets donated (thus the donation lists in every chapter forum, just about... hint, hint! ;) ), thus they would be unable to reward the person well for what they are giving. You can give gobbies, which a person can then use at the rate of 100/game or they can buy some item with it. They can also blanket monthlies or missed events/game days, but if someone makes a large donation they will be able to blanket forever anyway.

I would be interested to hear what you would suggest (especially since you are one of the best donors in my game :D )
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Alavatar said:
tieran said:
What if we just removed Expanded Enchantment (i.e. per day activates) from the game entirely (along with some other changes, or not)

This ritual is the cause of much of the pocket scholar hullabaloo anyway.

Can the ritual, let people trade in their existing per day items for other magical effects based on the already existing PP values in the treasure policy.

Take out Damage Aura, replace it with Magic Aura (or something similar) with no damage modifiers, just gives a magic carrier (basically exactly duplicating elemental aura & earth/chaos aura). Compensate with magic PP based on dropping to a +0 DA.

Leave in Enchant (times ever items), make the duration of times ever items until used.

Leave in Spell Store, but force it to be incanted (with or without activate).

Remove Extend Enchantment (1 year duration ritual) and give most rituals a base duration of 1 year.

Change duration on Store Ability to until used (to bring even with Enchant).
And to everyone saying, "Magic items are a reward to people who do stuff for the good of the game" I ask: Why do people need IG rewards for OOG work? Why can't there be more OOG rewards?
Because you will get alot more people to donate that way, instead of saying, "well donate for the good of the game, your reward is you knowing you did something good".
Its the same thing with donating your time at a reitrement home or a car. Some people will do it, because it makes them feel good, but others will do it for there image or because they have to or for the write off. Adding something into it (like the write off) will allow for more people to donate.
 

Talen

Adept
Hmm.

What if items had the same restriction as scrolls?

That is, you're limited to using item effects (that match a spell) with a level restriction. Ritual effects would not be a part of that, obviously. If you don't have any spells, you're treated as a base level of zero. Non spellcasters could still use some stuff, but it'd be very difficult to get "item templars" like the aformentioned (and real!) 38th level-that's-effectively-a-75th level templar.

That to me seems to be one of the big sore points to item-mongering...the longer a campaign is around, the more items seem to be replacing people. That's not good.
 

Saephis

Squire
That idea, while good, was passed over several times already. People didn't even note that it was suggested. Thus, they either don't like the idea or don't care enough to discuss it.

I think it'd be another good solution for the problem, since Fighters with Scholar-items seems to be the heated point of all of this... "Why should I be a scholar if I can be a fighter with more body and hit things all day long AND use spells faster than the real casters?"

If a fighter had to have the same requirements to use it, IE: Earth magic of the appropriate level to use Earth activatables and Celestial of some level to use Earth Activatables, it'd decrease the problem quite a bit. At the very least, if someone DID want to be a fighter, and buy some Earth & Celestial Magics, they'd have to prioritize far earlier what they *really* wanted to do with the character.

Think this was originally brought up on page 2 or 3.
 
Alavatar said:
And to everyone saying, "Magic items are a reward to people who do stuff for the good of the game" I ask: Why do people need IG rewards for OOG work? Why can't there be more OOG rewards?
Because OOG rewards generally cost money. Most chapters run on a shoe string budget and OOG rewards are not feasible. I'd love to pay the people who come to help in real money or even just pizza (which we have done out of our own pockets at times).

I am president and a large shareholder of a company that owns a chapter and a site. Every penny that is not put back into the chapter or the site is sorely missed. Yet at the same time some people feel any more than $60 is too much to pay for a weekend. I take no salary from the company and in fact sometimes foot bills the company should really be paying. I would love to hear practical ideas for OOG rewards. I haven't been able to come up with any, not even to slightly reimburse myself for gas, let alone the practically full time hours I put into the company...all to make the game better for others. I even give away my goblin stamped NPC items to others who work hard for the site or the game.

The bottom line is, there are very few rewards for people who work hard for the game to make it great. In fact, the harder you work is often directly proportional to how much crap is heaped on you. Taking away any of the current rewards is just a punch in the face to all the owners, staff, NPCs and regular players who are trying to build something great.

I'm sincere when I say give me suggestions about OOG rewards. Maybe someone will have a stroke of genius. But odds are, the only reward people get OOG is seeing the game they love improve and maybe helping a few people have some fun along the way.

Scott
 
I know the idea of increasing the number of blankets a person could get as a reward is abhorrent and I agree we don't want it to get out of hand like it has in other games. What about the idea of, in addition to the standing way of buying monthly blankets and blanketing games you don't play at, make it possible to boost xp/build from games you DO play at? My thinking is, if you expend the normal amount of gobbies you would to buy up the blankets from a missed game on a game you actually played at, you get 1.5 times the xp you normally would. So, if you went to a normal two-day weekend event, payed and played, then expended 60 gobbies, you'd now get 3 blankets instead of two. I would even go so far as to make this so you could apply these gobbies to games outside your home chapter within your home chapter. Example: I am based in Oregon, but I go to a Seattle weekend event. I have lots of gobbies in Oregon from service/donations/whatever. When Seattle sends back my character that I played at their event, I inform Oregon logistics I want to "bonus gobbie" that event. Yes, it would bulk up some people's characters, but it would be in a fairly controlled fashion. Yes, people who live closer to several chapters would have an advantage over those more isolated, but that's already the case and it would be evenly scaled as to how much it would actually disadvantage those players (as in people who chapter hop that much are still only gonna gain 50% more than they would have over a person who only plays one no matter how many chapters they play in). I think one thing that's very obvious from this string and several others is that most players feel that magic items are far more game imbalancing than higher level characters, so giving people more build-based skills is more palletable than giving them magic items that duplicate those skills.
 

Saephis

Squire
Paragraphs, Man... Paragraphs..
 

Alavatar

Baron
Disclaimer: I am posting my opinion, so take what I say with a grain of salt. :)

I'm not trying abolish what we have, nor do dislike the system. I have heard many people complain about items acquired through goblin stamps and how easy they are to acquire. I'm just asking the "Why?" questions. :D

First of all, I don't think people are looking for reimbursement for their donations. I think people are looking at the "If I donate X, I can get Y goblin/dragon stamps which will allow me to Z (acquire item, get monthly blankets for a year, whatever)." From what I have seen the primary use of goblin/dragon stamps has been to either acquire potions/scrolls/alchemy, get more blankets, or get magic items.

Perhaps my question should have been "Why must magic items be part of the IG rewards available for goblin/dragon stamps?" Then we could say that monthly blankets, blanketing missed events, and production items are all ok. But what other rewards can be offered? Perhaps spending goblin stamps to put a skill on your card (like being taught, not actually purchasing the skill)? Perhaps giving discounts to events at the rate of 3-5 GS/dollar discount to a maximum discount of 1/2 event cost? (I know that was done before by some chapters and I understand some chapters cannot afford that) How about spending goblin stamps for food? Find some way to allow people with low income, but lots of time (therefore capable of making stuff or doing logistical stuff) to more easily afford the events. Find some way to allow people who don't have much free time, but have high income or expendable income (who donate money and stuff) to facilitate their play time.

I don't have all the answers, but I'll ask a lot of questions. :) I would ask more questions but work wants me to actually do something productive. :p
 

Sunnfire

Squire
Max.

With that proposed system my character would be 7 Levels higher. Thats a lot of levels.

While I am a proponent of, high level characters do not really 'break' the system. Increasing every staff members build gain by 50% I think would cause more issues than giving them a thing that goes away in time.
 
I gave Jesse (Suunfire) an awesome OOG reward. He got to watch the superbowl with me.

That must be worth about a million dragon stamps.

And then the Giants beat the Patriots. I had to pay Tom Brady 2 million dragon stamps and 5 million goblin stamps to throw the game. He really wanted a magic sword I hear. I heard he got Giselle a couple bane items too.

Scott
 

Sunnfire

Squire
Its true.

But it was on my TV.. so I will take my 20 Rit dragon stamp sword now.

I'm tired of spellcrafting a DA0 so my sword can be cool.
 
Sunnfire said:
Max.

With that proposed system my character would be 7 Levels higher. Thats a lot of levels.

While I am a proponent of, high level characters do not really 'break' the system. Increasing every staff members build gain by 50% I think would cause more issues than giving them a thing that goes away in time.

Seven levels higher than what? And over how long a time frame are you talking about? For a fifty percent increase to have that much effect you must be basing it over a fairly long period of time playing a lot of games, or started factoring it at 1st level where yes, it would have a huge impact.

Also, consider that unless you were in fact a scholar class to begin with, this would still not allow you to gobbie up a dreaded pocket scholar or the much feared +3 DA sword, it would only give you these benefits if you spent the seven levels on spell tree or profs. The big question was, how do we prevent people from using gobbies to make super-items that make them into fighters with spell trees, and this would have that result, unless that fighter spent 70 build on a spell shrub, and then they still wouldn't be throwing prisons, more like a spell shield or two without scrolls.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
Fearless Leader said:
But a lot of magic items go out as treasure. Removing the ritual wouldn't change that.

If we don't put out items as treasure, then we need to put out more gold to compensate, and players are rich enough now! Besides, gold costs us real money!!!
Removing the ritual would prevent times per day items from going out as treasure. It would also remove the existing times per day items from play.

You can't have times per day items without the ritual that makes them...
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Alavatar said:
Perhaps my question should have been "Why must magic items be part of the IG rewards available for goblin/dragon stamps?"
I feel that then the game will be flodded with production. Why buy it from the potion maker or the smith when I can buy it from Bob who has too many gobbies so he sells it much cheaper, or the fact that one team has 1k mort potions, now making the value of one (to them) less.
 

Saephis

Squire
tieran said:
Removing the ritual would prevent times per day items from going out as treasure. It would also remove the existing times per day items from play.

You can't have times per day items without the ritual that makes them...
Exactly.

The problem is around magic items being more useful than the actual build-bought skills.

No Ritual to create said type of Magic Item, thus no problem.

There's such a huge array of rituals, because people keep adding and adding to the database from proposals here and proposals there, yet a lot likely aren't seeing the light of day for some time because this "old" type of ritual keeps going out left and right.

Get rid of the ritual, thus get rid of the problem, and in doing so make Scholars more valuable (Yes, both Celestial AND Earth) because then, they're the only suppliers on a rather limited market. AND People get to see (In my opinion) more unique, flavorful, and creative rituals that're in the system.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
Right, which is why I was making the comment to Mike V, who seemed to be saying that the items would still go out in game.

I don't know that this particular rit has a huge impact on neat new rituals being out there...

Wand I think has been around what? 2 or 3 years? maybe 5?

Strengthen was out a little more recently than that...

But the point is, those are the "new" rituals and while they are cool effects, they all have the same chance of going out, so while removing expanded enchantment form the database will increase the likelyhood of other rits going out, the chance of Proscribe or Boost Duration going out increases too...

Personally I think the system needs a bit of an overhaul, and I've tossed a couple different systems around in my head. I think one of the biggest issues at least from a ritual casting character's viewpoint (of which I am not, but I used to be, kinda) is that my buddy with 20+ levels of formals has the same chance to fail an Investiture as I do, with 2 levels of rits... I'd kinda like to go to a pull from the bag kinda scenario (like we do with ressurections) for determining ritual success. But first I think I'd revamp rits so that its all on a scale of 1-10 difficulty... But that is really for another topic I suppose ;-)
 

Alavatar

Baron
Gilwing said:
Alavatar said:
Perhaps my question should have been "Why must magic items be part of the IG rewards available for goblin/dragon stamps?"
I feel that then the game will be flodded with production. Why buy it from the potion maker or the smith when I can buy it from Bob who has too many gobbies so he sells it much cheaper, or the fact that one team has 1k mort potions, now making the value of one (to them) less.
Is that better or worse then everyone on that team having a 1/day Life, 1/day Prison, and/or 1/day Cure Mort.?
 

Saephis

Squire
Gilwing said:
Alavatar said:
Perhaps my question should have been "Why must magic items be part of the IG rewards available for goblin/dragon stamps?"
I feel that then the game will be flodded with production. Why buy it from the potion maker or the smith when I can buy it from Bob who has too many gobbies so he sells it much cheaper, or the fact that one team has 1k mort potions, now making the value of one (to them) less.
Last I checked, you were still restricted to a certain number of goblin stamps per logistical period involved. And that'd cut down those 1000 Cure Mort Potions pretty quickly.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Saephis said:
Gilwing said:
Alavatar said:
Perhaps my question should have been "Why must magic items be part of the IG rewards available for goblin/dragon stamps?"
I feel that then the game will be flodded with production. Why buy it from the potion maker or the smith when I can buy it from Bob who has too many gobbies so he sells it much cheaper, or the fact that one team has 1k mort potions, now making the value of one (to them) less.
Last I checked, you were still restricted to a certain number of goblin stamps per logistical period involved. And that'd cut down those 1000 Cure Mort Potions pretty quickly.
Last I checked I didn't say to be purchased at one event. You can purchase gobbied PP when you pc and npc and this is all per-person. I have 8-10 people on my team, at 100 per weeked thats 800-1000 pp spent PER event it can totaly be possible.

I am just arguing that giving less options allows for a flood of something else.
 
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