Making Ritual Levels More Useful

why not give casters abilities to augment their spells?

Extend - touch spells become packet, line of sight becomes 10 minutes. When this ability is used it must be announced at the end of the spell incant. so Pin becomes "with mystic force I pin you...Extend"
Double - if the spell is NOT a "buff" spell and carries a number value its doubled.
Triple - All spells under level 5 can be tripled in their number value except for "buff" spells.
Fork - 1 spell slot is use the incant is said twice the spell is delivered twice. The end of the first spell "Fork" must be called clearly and the second spell must be cast within 5 seconds or the ability is lost.
Cancel - the caster can drop any spell he has cast that did not have an instantaneous duration such as damaging or healing
"I cancel my magic" and touch a packet to the affected person/object.
Magic Delivery - any spell that caster is able to cast can be delivered as magic
Elemental Delivery - any spell under 5th level can be delivered as elemental
Arcane Delivery - any spell under 3rd level are delivered as arcane

errata
1) Spells with a number value that has been modified must announce the new value at the end of the spell.. I call upon the earth to cure light wounds <New value> , I call forth a magic missile <new value> etc
2) once a spell has been augmented it cant be augmented further
3) Each augmentation requires 1 "slot" of formal magic levels to be used with the exception of double, triple, fork and arcane delivery..these require 2 slots to be expended.

just some thoughts.
 
I have to say this topic is certainly quite exciting to me and I think it is reasonable to give Formal casters some sort of boon in fighting. Not one that would compare with a wizard that just decides to layer on column after column of spell slots but something. Here is actually what a group of friends and I play with. (we aren't an official game)

Formal scholars can find a number of formal scrolls that are "can trips". These are formal scrolls that can used times per day equal to the number of ritual levels of the formal caster. The formalist does not need to prepare them at logistics. The two main types of can trips that celestial scholars and earth scholars use are Elemental Pool and Healing Pool. So for example for an elemental pool the formalist cracks a component, says the incant, "I call upon the power of celestial magic to craft the elemental <<type>> pool ritual". They then have the ability to cast <<number>> elemental <<type>> damage 5 times + the number of ritual levels they posses. Where <<number>> is equal to the level of formal magic that the caster has with a maximum of 10. So for example, a formalist with 5 levels of formal magic can cast "5 elemental flame" 10 times with one elemental pool. With healing it works the say way, a formalist with for example 7 levels of earth formal magic can cast "7 elemental healing" 12 times with one pool. The max cast in a single spell is 10 and the max number of times a pool can be cast is 30. So at 25 levels of formal magic it maxes out somewhat. A formalist can only have one "pool" active at a time but once one runs out if they have the components and more levels of formal magic they can create another and be up and running.

The really cool affect of this is especially with healing pools it means that if the healer gets tapped he can start expending components to craft healing pools and still continue healing. For damage, the Celestial scholar can start burning components either once his regular spells run out or to save his big bang all at once damage spells for later.
 
[quote="Hoyce]
As I implied in my last post it just seems to me that characters who spend time unlocking the secrets of the universe to manipulate physics to their whim should have, at least once in a while, a little something more that some chump with a sword. This is currently not the case.[/quote]

Then refuse to make that item for the "chump with a sword". The casters hold all the power....they just don't realise it and instead are complaing that they don't get to feel cool because, they infact created the situation (minus npc items, but at least hq has not allowed perm items for a few years now and Ohio is allowing for lco scrollsm great idea btw). Again to me this boils down to an IG stand point. Prefect example, this is not the case on the west coast.
 
Gilwing said:
Prefect example, this is not the case on the west coast.
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Maybe West coast casters are just ballsier than East coast ones ;-)
 
tieran said:
Gilwing said:
Prefect example, this is not the case on the west coast.
Click to expand...

Maybe West coast casters are just ballsier than East coast ones ;-)
Click to expand...

The impression I get is that the East Coast style is more team oriented and in the majority of cases, teams make things, individuals don't. Once the team style comes into play, it's harder to gather stuff needed as an individual...not impossible, but harder. If everyone is playing more individually or as small teams, it's more likely individuals will get to make things. But an individual or teams of 2 or 3 are going to have a hard time competing for resources against a team of 10 or 15. And competing against 2 or 3 or 4 teams of 10-15 can become supremely challenging.

Scott
 
Dreamingfurther said:
Formal scholars can find a number of formal scrolls that are "can trips". These are formal scrolls that can used times per day equal to the number of ritual levels of the formal caster. The formalist does not need to prepare them at logistics. The two main types of can trips that celestial scholars and earth scholars use are Elemental Pool and Healing Pool. So for example for an elemental pool the formalist cracks a component, says the incant, "I call upon the power of celestial magic to craft the elemental <<type>> pool ritual". They then have the ability to cast <<number>> elemental <<type>> damage 5 times + the number of ritual levels they posses. Where <<number>> is equal to the level of formal magic that the caster has with a maximum of 10. So for example, a formalist with 5 levels of formal magic can cast "5 elemental flame" 10 times with one elemental pool. With healing it works the say way, a formalist with for example 7 levels of earth formal magic can cast "7 elemental healing" 12 times with one pool. The max cast in a single spell is 10 and the max number of times a pool can be cast is 30. So at 25 levels of formal magic it maxes out somewhat. A formalist can only have one "pool" active at a time but once one runs out if they have the components and more levels of formal magic they can create another and be up and running.

The really cool affect of this is especially with healing pools it means that if the healer gets tapped he can start expending components to craft healing pools and still continue healing. For damage, the Celestial scholar can start burning components either once his regular spells run out or to save his big bang all at once damage spells for later.
Click to expand...

This is very similar to the Nero International Cantrip rules for Elemental Pool and Healing Pool, with them its base 10 then something like 50+10 per formal Level, caped at 150 I think..i.e. a caster with with 10 lvl of Formal would have a pool of 150 to be thrown in 10 pt. packets, the Healing Pool is not throwable needs to be touch cast...and man does it suck up alot of componets!!
 
Gilwing said:
Then refuse to make that item for the "chump with a sword". The casters hold all the power....they just don't realise it and instead are complaing that they don't get to feel cool because, they infact created the situation (minus npc items, but at least hq has not allowed perm items for a few years now and Ohio is allowing for lco scrollsm great idea btw). Again to me this boils down to an IG stand point. Prefect example, this is not the case on the west coast.
Click to expand...

I may not have articulated myself well in that statment. I meant to say that, even without items, your average fighter is more powerful than your average ritualist, I wasn't even neccessarily referring to items in that paragraph.

That said, however, rarely is merely refusing to create an item for someone else a good option. It means that the vast array of build spent that rarely gets used is used even less. Point of fact, the only times I have received any form of treasure from my rit levels have been creating super swords for someone.

I think Scott may have hit the nail on the head with the fact that team v. independent dynamics (at least here on the East Coast) are what prevents your average non teamed ritualist from acquiring the requisite treasure to give themselves the benefits of ritual casting.
 
I think there was a point that is being missed here:

Combat classes have top-shelf skills (eviscerate, assasinate, dodge, riposte etc) which, while costing build, don't require anything further than the same sword they've been swinging since first level, scholars do not have an equivalent. A scholar's high-end skill is ENTIRELY treasure dependent to be useful. And even at that, while they can do nifty things that affect combat (whether they make toys for themselves or others is a separate issue) they do not have a high-end combat useful skill, at all.

You can argue that a fighter's skill is treasure-based, but a weapon, as regular production, is easy enough to come by, if found as treasure, by paying a blacksmith to make one, or by gobbying one. I can't gobby components or a ritual scroll. Nor do I think you should be able to do so.

I can see the argument that earth casters, as healers are largely a support class. I play my primary as a mostly supporting type character. But not all earth casters are healers. And celestial casters? A class whose main concept is throwing DAMAGE? Not being a fighter does not automatically stick you in the category of "fighter support." All classes should support each other. I wish people would stop treating the fighter as the be-all, end-all of this game.
 
I can hear Bruce Campbell's voice booming, "Ezri...sidekick!"

"We prefer to be called hero support."

:lol:
 
I agree that Celestial Scholars shouldn't be stuck into the "support" class role... =\ To be honest I don't know what you can do except something like the pools to give ritualists something to go on in battle...

Yea ours is a little bit similar to the Internation pools, the difference being that we slowed it down for low level formalists so that it doesn't replace spells. And yes the healing pool is touch only.
 
Ezri said:
I think there was a point that is being missed here:

Combat classes have top-shelf skills (eviscerate, assasinate, dodge, riposte etc) which, while costing build, don't require anything further than the same sword they've been swinging since first level, scholars do not have an equivalent. A scholar's high-end skill is ENTIRELY treasure dependent to be useful. And even at that, while they can do nifty things that affect combat (whether they make toys for themselves or others is a separate issue) they do not have a high-end combat useful skill, at all.

You can argue that a fighter's skill is treasure-based, but a weapon, as regular production, is easy enough to come by, if found as treasure, by paying a blacksmith to make one, or by gobbying one. I can't gobby components or a ritual scroll. Nor do I think you should be able to do so.

I can see the argument that earth casters, as healers are largely a support class. I play my primary as a mostly supporting type character. But not all earth casters are healers. And celestial casters? A class whose main concept is throwing DAMAGE? Not being a fighter does not automatically stick you in the category of "fighter support." All classes should support each other. I wish people would stop treating the fighter as the be-all, end-all of this game.
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When it comes to combat its all just fighters and healers. Look at Black Forest, we are nothing more than fighters and healers who work together towards one goal.....defeating our enemy on the battle field.
 
Just because that's how BF works doesn't mean its the only way for a team to function. Let's say none of you had magic weapons, and no items and you're fighting stuff that's magic to hit - then what?

My point is that every class should have some value in and of themselves, and that all classes should in some way help to support each other. While I do still think that's largely true, the issues being discussed lately are that of balance between the classes. In that regard, casters do not have a high-end, combat-oriented skill option within their class that would be equivalent to a fighter (going outside of the class or augmenting with items or rits can be done to any character).

I don't advocate all classes being the same, but each class should have skills that are of approximately equivalent power to each other, and that's currently not the case.
 
Michelle,
While I agree that there may be something out there for formalists other than the ability to cast rits. I disagree with the premis that casters do not have a high end skill that directly affect combat. They do, it is Prison, Death, Earth Storm, Magic Storm, Elemental Blast ect., these are the high level battle skills for casters. Anyone who has seen a 7 or 8 block celestial scholar or earth scholar unload into a battle knows the amount of damage and the speed at which they can do damage. As previously stated in this tread formal is not ment to be combat oriented and if you make a high level formalist you probably are not as interested in changing the tide of a battle, or destroying the Big Bad Guy in one on one combat.

-John

-as an aside I play a fighter and know I am nothing without my caster friends
 
Hammerfist said:
-John

-as an aside I play a fighter and know I am nothing without my caster friends
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I'm sorry, this statement seems to suggest that there is a time when you are worth more than nothing.

That can't possibly be what you meant.

Please clarify.
 
touche
 
isn't it wonderful to know your owner loves you?
 
Hammerfist said:
They do, it is Prison, Death, Earth Storm, Magic Storm, Elemental Blast ect., these are the high level battle skills for casters. Anyone who has seen a 7 or 8 block celestial scholar or earth scholar unload into a battle knows the amount of damage and the speed at which they can do damage.
Click to expand...

The problem is they are limited to 7 or 8 times a day with these skills, where a fighter or rogue can swing a sword all day and still be effective.
 
Hammerfist said:
Michelle,
While I agree that there may be something out there for formalists other than the ability to cast rits. I disagree with the premis that casters do not have a high end skill that directly affect combat. They do, it is Prison, Death, Earth Storm, Magic Storm, Elemental Blast ect., these are the high level battle skills for casters. Anyone who has seen a 7 or 8 block celestial scholar or earth scholar unload into a battle knows the amount of damage and the speed at which they can do damage. As previously stated in this tread formal is not ment to be combat oriented and if you make a high level formalist you probably are not as interested in changing the tide of a battle, or destroying the Big Bad Guy in one on one combat.

-John

-as an aside I play a fighter and know I am nothing without my caster friends
Click to expand...

I should point out that nowhere has anyone advocated giving a ritualist something that allows them to "take out the BBG in one combat." Just a little boon that gives them something unique that they can do on a regular basis and isn't dependent on acquiring several of the most highly sought after treasures in the game.

My original idea, for example, was merely a small buff or two for every 5 or 10 levels of rituals.
 
Auric said:
Hammerfist said:
They do, it is Prison, Death, Earth Storm, Magic Storm, Elemental Blast ect., these are the high level battle skills for casters. Anyone who has seen a 7 or 8 block celestial scholar or earth scholar unload into a battle knows the amount of damage and the speed at which they can do damage.
Click to expand...

The problem is they are limited to 7 or 8 times a day with these skills, where a fighter or rogue can swing a sword all day and still be effective.
Click to expand...

Not to mention that they can swing their eviscerate and slay until they hit, but a missed death spell is just gone.

But now I'm just nitpicking...
 
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