Making Ritual Levels More Useful

[Hammerfist]

Matt,
I agree, but the point was specifically made about "top-shelf" skills not weapon profs. I relate the top shelf fighter skills directly to the 9th level spell block I listed.

-John

 

[Octaine]

Michelle,
While I agree that there may be something out there for formalists other than the ability to cast rits. I disagree with the premis that casters do not have a high end skill that directly affect combat. They do, it is Prison, Death, Earth Storm, Magic Storm, Elemental Blast ect., these are the high level battle skills for casters. Anyone who has seen a 7 or 8 block celestial scholar or earth scholar unload into a battle knows the amount of damage and the speed at which they can do damage. As previously stated in this tread formal is not ment to be combat oriented and if you make a high level formalist you probably are not as interested in changing the tide of a battle, or destroying the Big Bad Guy in one on one combat.

-John

-as an aside I play a fighter and know I am nothing without my caster friends

I should point out that nowhere has anyone advocated giving a ritualist something that allows them to "take out the BBG in one combat." Just a little boon that gives them something unique that they can do on a regular basis and isn't dependent on acquiring several of the most highly sought after treasures in the game.

My original idea, for example, was merely a small buff or two for every 5 or 10 levels of rituals.

Then dont take so many levels of rituals, increase your pyramid or use scrolls. When I was a templar I used to use scrolls all event long....of course HQ did away with scroll shops soon after that...{sigh}

 

[Dreamingfurther]

what do you mean they did away with scroll shops? You can't have a workshop for producing scrolls at HQ? I'm confused about that last comment...

 

[Sunnfire]

Scroll shops were in place where you could spend gold to buy production items, regardless of your ability to make them.

Kind of like a NPC who was a scroll maker just coming in to sell off his stock.

I forget the exact mechanics, but that was the basics of it.

Where as a WORKshop is something that allows you to get double your normal production from a production skill you posses. Those are still around.

 

[Octal]

dont think that it will ever happen, but if you want to give scholars a boost make 10th level spells. keep those spells off of scrolls and out of magic items (maybe even make them scholar only) and as long as you still let pepole buy formal levels starting when they have 9th level spells it dosnt mess up anyones build.

 

[Robb G]

Scroll shops were in place where you could spend gold to buy production items, regardless of your ability to make them.

Kind of like a NPC who was a scroll maker just coming in to sell off his stock.

I forget the exact mechanics, but that was the basics of it.

Where as a WORKshop is something that allows you to get double your normal production from a production skill you posses. Those are still around.

um... just buy them from PCs, there are tons of people selling all the time, it increases role play and takes the burden off of logistics.

 

[tieran]

Which I think was one of the reasons why they were removed...

Honestly with them in game there was almost no reason at all to take production skills...

except for one level of blacksmithing and three levels of alchemy...

 

[Octaine]

Which I think was one of the reasons why they were removed...

Honestly with them in game there was almost no reason at all to take production skills...

except for one level of blacksmithing and three levels of alchemy...

Disagree...they were removed because a PC/Team could come in and buy say 40g worth of scrolls give them all to one caster and he had the ability to cast spells as a 60th level character but he was only level 10.

 

[Robb G]

you can still use gobbies to buy production items (well.. up to 100 worth anyway) and if you have the gold in game you can find the PCs selling scrolls and buy them out..

 

[tieran]

right but the limitation of buying 1 gold worth of scrolls or 15g worth of scrolls if you have a 15 person team (that all has gobbies) is substantially smaller than an unlimited exchange of gold for scrolls

 

[Duke Frost]

Which I think was one of the reasons why they were removed...

Honestly with them in game there was almost no reason at all to take production skills...

except for one level of blacksmithing and three levels of alchemy...

Disagree...they were removed because a PC/Team could come in and buy say 40g worth of scrolls give them all to one caster and he had the ability to cast spells as a 60th level character but he was only level 10.

Both of those were reasons for the "stores" to go away. You're both right. It was also a "plot device" and never part of the official rules.

Scott

 

[Creepshow]

Guys as a ritual caster myself ... I think you guys get quite a bit of stuff. I wouldn't support any kind of battle magic or monster skill oriented boosts. And I wouldn't throw you a treat like some sort of drooling canine just to satisfy you. Any sort of "Capstone" abilities would be oriented onto the ritual system itself, by improving casting changes or improving ritual results. I heard a couple other neat ideas as well. I would also consider the number of formal levels at an event when we distribute reagents as well, but that's not in the game or anything yet.

People complained about Formals not being cool enough. We gave you spell crafting a few years back. We have adjusted some of the rituals to give you advantages if you have levels of formal crafting.

Formal Levels like many production point type skills is not going to be valuable to you at every level. Luckily you really don't have to have more then say 10 levels to cast most rituals. And you certainly have the ability to use the skill every day will spell crafting.

For the next book we have talked about looking for more drastic changes, and as the last time I reworked the entire system it took me nearly a year to complete and quite a bit of time to get the owners to approve it ... I think we can revisit this in a year or two. This edition we are concentrating on dumping things we don't use, fixing disparity in player weapon styles, fixing celestial scholars, addressing Production Point skills and the characters that dedicate themselves to those ... and about another couple dozen minor issues.

John Finnegan
Alliance Chairman
Alliance Rules Committee

 

[Gilwing]

Just because that's how BF works doesn't mean its the only way for a team to function. Let's say none of you had magic weapons, and no items and you're fighting stuff that's magic to hit - then what?

My point is that every class should have some value in and of themselves, and that all classes should in some way help to support each other. While I do still think that's largely true, the issues being discussed lately are that of balance between the classes. In that regard, casters do not have a high-end, combat-oriented skill option within their class that would be equivalent to a fighter (going outside of the class or augmenting with items or rits can be done to any character).

I don't advocate all classes being the same, but each class should have skills that are of approximately equivalent power to each other, and that's currently not the case.

Thats why we have 1 celestial caster

 

[Gilwing]

They do, it is Prison, Death, Earth Storm, Magic Storm, Elemental Blast ect., these are the high level battle skills for casters. Anyone who has seen a 7 or 8 block celestial scholar or earth scholar unload into a battle knows the amount of damage and the speed at which they can do damage.

The problem is they are limited to 7 or 8 times a day with these skills, where a fighter or rogue can swing a sword all day and still be effective.

So can you.....

 

[Ezri]

I guess my question is then - where scholars intended as a support class? Is there a reason their top skill is a production skill and not combat oriented?

Maybe I should change the title, as rits as they are do come in handy, but the concept of a true "battle caster" is very hard to play in our game without picking up a weapon, which to me, defeats the concept.

 

[Duke Frost]

I guess my question is then - where scholars intended as a support class? Is there a reason their top skill is a production skill and not combat oriented?

Maybe I should change the title, as rits as they are do come in handy, but the concept of a true "battle caster" is very hard to play in our game without picking up a weapon, which to me, defeats the concept.

Formal Magic is the top skill for people who choose it as their top skill. Prison is a celestial caster's true top skill. Prison is just as effective if not more so than an eviscerate and is definitely more effective than most slays. Whether it "sticks" or not (resist magic/spell shield/dodge vs magic armor/dodge/parry) is another matter and somewhat up to monster desk and strategy. No one is FORCED to take ritual magic. We have a rit caster with a very large column and only a few rit levels. That's the route they chose and in combat they are much more effective than someone who chose the ritualist route.

I would argue that earth scholars are more support/utility casters. But they get to feel the love every time someone yells "life spell".

What was hurting celestial casters, who seem to be designed to be the combat mage, was a severe lack of all day damage. Wands are an effort to change that. And any true balancing effort in the rules can't be predicated on magic items, like the old wands mechanic was. Any balance fix needs to be available to everyone to buy fairly easily.

But to me, choosing to take a lot of formal magic levels isn't much different than someone choosing to take a lot of levels of alchemy or blacksmithing or potion making.

Wands were also made "elemental" as there aren't a lot of elemental blockers out there. Since it's only damage, it's not a one shot take out of the big bad, so it shouldn't necessitate putting more resist magics on creatures. As a caster, I would think it would be less disappointing to know your damage stuck to the monster, even if he gets healed afterwards. Hearing resist gets old after a while.

Scott

 

[Gilwing]

I guess my question is then - where scholars intended as a support class? Is there a reason their top skill is a production skill and not combat oriented?

Maybe I should change the title, as rits as they are do come in handy, but the concept of a true "battle caster" is very hard to play in our game without picking up a weapon, which to me, defeats the concept.

Formal Magic is the top skill for people who choose it as their top skill. Prison is a celestial caster's true top skill. Prison is just as effective if not more so than an eviscerate and is definitely more effective than most slays. Whether it "sticks" or not (resist magic/spell shield/dodge vs magic armor/dodge/parry) is another matter and somewhat up to monster desk and strategy. No on is FORCED to take ritual magic. We have a rit caster with a very large column and only a few rit levels. That's the route they chose and in combat they are much more effective than someone who chose the ritualist route.

I would argue that earth scholars are more support/utility casters. But they get to feel the love every time someone yells "life spell".

What was hurting celestial casters, who seem to be designed to be the combat mage, was a severe lack of all day damage. Wands are an effort to change that. And any true balancing effort in the rules can't be predicated on magic items, like the old wands mechanic was. Any balance fix needs to be available to everyone to buy fairly easily.

But to me, choosing to take a lot of formal magic levels isn't much different than someone choosing to take a lot of levels of alchemy or blacksmithing or potion making.

Wands were also made "elemental" as there aren't a lot of elemental blockers out there. Since it's only damage, it's not a one shot take out of the big bad, so it shouldn't necessitate putting more resist magics on creatures. As a caster, I would think it would be less disappointing to know your damage stuck to the monster, even if he gets healed afterwards. Hearing resist gets old after a while.

Scott

Very well put Scott. I can see why wands were introduced and passed.

 

[Ezri]

Fair enough.

Thanks Scott.

 

[Walgar]

removed

 

[Auric]

I would argue that earth scholars are more support/utility casters. But they get to feel the love every time someone yells "life spell".

But i want to fight all day and be effective too!

After reading this topic im understand that caster feel like they "waited" build. So how about something a simple as Dont count Rits and other crafting skill into player level. Go on a mod with a caster with a 4 block and it counts as 100bp ( 120 for split classes ). Then your spells you can use are the only thing figered into the Alp of the things you fight. When have 2 magic storms a Prison and a CoP is all you need to win, you feel cool .

Tim

If we do that then we would also have to do that for all other non combat related skills. Remove Craftsman, Production related skills, etc.. Skills may not be specifically combat oriented but they will come into play and should count towards your level. If i spend 10 build on create potion, i will be able to use those potions in combat to benefit me.