Mystic Wood Elf make-up req change.

[markusdark]

And for the record, also, MWE's already get twice as much as elves. Resist Command for both, and Break Command for just one. Reduced cost archery? Situationally useful, as there's other BP-Cost Breaks for MWE's as well, or just things available.

Don't the elves have another resist ability? I'd say that the cost of OCS reduction isn't a big incentive since you are required to buy them.

The only issue I'd have with a heritage mark is that currently don't barbarians and wild elves tend to have face markings? Sorry I don't have a rule book in front of me.

I don't see trying to define a race better being a way of sneaking in and removing disadvantages. I personally feel that to increase the seperation between races that such physical features should be race specific. Elves have the ears, Woodfolk have the horns, Dwarves the beards and so on. Yes, barbarian, human and gypsy have no differenting physical attributes but that is for another argument.

 

[Alavatar]

Nope. Your common High Elves can only Resist Command.

And I would mark the reduced cost for OCS as a huge benefit to any character that will be a production master: for only 1 BP more per production skill purchased you could have your first batch (and half your second if you don't have a workshop) paid for.

People keep bringing up Wild Elves. Is that a recognized race, now?

 

[Ezri]

Gypsies have and accent and general costume requirement.

For which they get a totally refuseable RP only skill.

Since when can you refuse a gypsy curse?

IIRC you can refuse to take a particular one if it makes you really uncomfortable OOG but you have to work something out with the gypsy OOG and take some sort of curse effect.

And Mike E is right - horns and no pointed ears=saytr

 

[doverman]

http://s297.photobucket.com/albums/mm22 ... 024_1A.jpg

you can see the difference here. One has the ears covered, the other one does not.

 

[Warlock]

I would like to point put in my defense that picture was taken *after* game had been called. I had been cleaning the kitchen when I had to put costuming back on for the pics.

 

[markusdark]

And if it wasn't for the horns, I'd assume that he was a gypsy due to the rather colorful coat.

BTW, I should note that I didn't even notice that the woman HAD ears on due to the angle. But the horns, you can't miss them.

 

[SimianRex]

Warlock, that is a damn ugly jacket.

 

[Warlock]

Warlock, that is a damn ugly jacket.

I disagree completely, and more importantly, so does the girl in the picture with me.

 

[Telokh_Amdo]

Gypsies have and accent and general costume requirement.

For which they get a totally refuseable RP only skill.

The only curse that can be refused is Deformity, and only due to safety concerns or make-up allergies. Even then a suitable replacement curse must be agreed upon. See page 47 in the rulebook, the third paragraph under Deformities.

 

[Telokh_Amdo]

Warlock, that is a damn ugly jacket.

I disagree completely, and more importantly, so does the girl in the picture with me.

I love that jacket. Then again, I was a fan of Colin Baker's coat during his time on DOCTOR WHO.

 

[Saephis]

People keep bringing up Wild Elves. Is that a recognized race, now?

Nope. Elf is an Elf, regardless of what you throw in front of it. Other than Dark. And Mystic Wood. Or Stone.

Maybe a few more re-names should be considered, hmm? But that's for other thread(s)...

Other than that, I'd completely forgotten about the reduced-cost craftsman skill. Nevermind you have to get what, 5? Yes, I'm so sure that they hate and loathe being in the having of money on a regular basis.

I'll still stand by the "If you want to remove ears, replace it with something else" statement. Removing the ears causes confusion with Satyrs when nothing else is added, and removing them without replacing them with something else throws a wrench into the advantage / disadvantage scheme of things.

 

[Wraith]

I'll still stand by the "If you want to remove ears, replace it with something else" statement. Removing the ears causes confusion with Satyrs when nothing else is added, and removing them without replacing them with something else throws a wrench into the advantage / disadvantage scheme of things.

Absolutely nothing throws a wrench in the advantage/disadvantage scheme because it is not balanced in the first place.

See also Sarr vs (theoretical)Cat Scavenger. Absolutely zero makeup difference, yet the Sarr trades double cost read/write for losing half the melee and all the ranged weapons and a waylay ban.

Or Biata vs MWE, wherein the racials are identical, only the biata get RP only mentalism whereas MWE have to wear an additional physrep and get one build off on C/O's.

Or even down to Barbarians, who get two awesome racials for having to dress on the cruder side of human.

 

[Saephis]

See also Sarr vs (theoretical)Cat Scavenger. Absolutely zero makeup difference, yet the Sarr trades double cost read/write for losing half the melee and all the ranged weapons and a waylay ban.

You mean the fact that Sarr have to look certain ways, and have different social standings within eachother? And the fact that Sarr are often, because they aren't scavengers, considered "higher" than Scavengers? Look beyond the sheets, this is a role playing game. Part of the Sarr imbalance is being addressed with the next edition, from what I've seen, also. So settle down on that.

Or Biata vs MWE, wherein the racials are identical, only the biata get RP only mentalism whereas MWE have to wear an additional physrep and get one build off on C/O's.

Again, Biata/Stone Elf mind-woogee is being addressed in the upcoming rules edition. But, MWE's also get access (Far easier) to the Vale of their folk, and the reduced Craftsmans are somewhat balanced out by having to buy a certain number by a certain level.

 

[markusdark]

Look beyond the sheets, this is a role playing game.

If people looked "beyond the sheets", then it wouldn't matter what racials/make up req's there were.

 

[Saephis]

Look beyond the sheets, this is a role playing game.

If people looked "beyond the sheets", then it wouldn't matter what racials/make up req's there were.

So you're wanting to pull the racial abilities / bonuses away from everything, then? Because, you know, most of them help identify how each race operates and acts. I said look beyond, not ignore them entirely.

And, since this sort of reply is leading us away from the subject, lets stay on track and not include snarky comments just for the sake of saying it, alright? Alright.

Racial identifiers, such as role play restrictions and racial abilities, help define to players of PCs and NPCs alike how a character acts. If a MWE has 10 Break Commands and 10 Resist Commands, if its an NPC that someone's just picking up to play for a scene, that could very much be taken as a "Yep, I'm going to rip out any spell pages I see with command spells and crush any alchemy that controls peoples' heads at first sight," mentality. Take away those abilities, and (short of a long NPC write-up on their exact feelings) the NPC would somewhat shrug and say "Yeah, I'm not really okay with Command abilities, I guess." Slight difference, I think.

Take away make-up requirements in general and you get people being lazy about their characters, not being easily (or at all) identifiable as the race they're playing, leading to (As I indicated earlier) a bunch of people walking around with plumbing equipment strapped together yelling numbers at eachother till someone falls down.

It becomes more of a Medieval role playing game, rather than a fantasy role playing game, really. And I know there's plenty of people who play Alliance because its a fantasy game, rather than a medieval plumbing-supply-combat game.

So, yeah, I'm very much opposed to just doing away with a racial requirement here and there without replacing it with something else. There's always room for improvement (IE: Higher requirements as a character becomes more of an 'elder' type of the race and the sort) or different things to indicate different factions in the race (Tribal markings and the sort). But just doing away with something? No, that's not something I'll support. Its not "better" by any stretch, it just starts getting to be lazy more than anything else.

 

[markusdark]

Look beyond the sheets, this is a role playing game.

If people looked "beyond the sheets", then it wouldn't matter what racials/make up req's there were.

So you're wanting to pull the racial abilities / bonuses away from everything, then? Because, you know, most of them help identify how each race operates and acts. I said look beyond, not ignore them entirely.

And, since this sort of reply is leading us away from the subject, lets stay on track and not include snarky comments just for the sake of saying it, alright? Alright.

I wasn't trying to be snarky. I never said to pull the abilities/bonuses from them - I said that they shouldn't matter. So what if MWE's have one more resist but no ears? So what if Sarr's have crap as far as abilities go? You should play the race you want to and not becuase you get more leet skilz for them. In other games, I see a whole slew of Sarr not because of any great advantage the race has but because the background and storylines for them in the local area are so rich.

 

[Saephis]

I wasn't trying to be snarky. I never said to pull the abilities/bonuses from them - I said that they shouldn't matter. So what if MWE's have one more resist but no ears? So what if Sarr's have crap as far as abilities go? You should play the race you want to and not becuase you get more leet skilz for them. In other games, I see a whole slew of Sarr not because of any great advantage the race has but because the background and storylines for them in the local area are so rich.

It's worked pretty well so far, without any overwhelming need to change it. Why bother changing it then? The name is 95% of the confusion from what I can figure. Change the name, only 5% of the problem remains. And its even, then, debatable if that remaining little bit would be done away with by a name change also.

Other than name confusion and "These are uncomfortable," I haven't read many good reasons to get rid of half of the phys-rep requirement. I like the Vale-Marking idea for the replacement, it'd also allow embelishment for Elder / Racial Leaders of the race or Vale groupings. But I don't like getting rid of it because of the two primary reasons stated.

Change it to Mystic Wood Folk, change the ears to a required Vale Marking, established by the plot team for each chapter's different vales or something like that (Drawing a picture for a race would be the least amount of required racial plot, from my point of view). Those two changes, boom. The race is well-defined and not confused with Elves anymore and they have a new-found identification system and all sorts of new plot goodies to enjoy along with it.

And, to note back on Biata / MWE benefits/draw backs, I don't think anyone pointed out the Biats Vs. Celestial Magic thing. That's a pretty big thing, in regards to wards, ritual magic, a third of the magic system in general, etc. Just worth noting.

 

[markusdark]

It's worked pretty well so far, without any overwhelming need to change it. Why bother changing it then?

Because now is the time to make suggestions for changes in the rulebook. It is a thought, I think one that has merit and I'm just defending my position.

However, I think that I will stop now as there isn't much more for me to say and I don't want to be accused again of an East vs West tiff.

Mark - Born and Raised New Yorker

 

[Dreamingfurther]

Well I have to say that I would agree with taking the ears off of MWE because honestly they really aren't elves... They don't have the same feel as all the other races with pointed ears and they more specifically don't have the cheaper bow cost.

And if we are going to get into the equal racial makeup to racial abilitys discusion I for one as a Dark Elf must point out that as cool as the once per day Resist Magic is compared to the makeup for DE's... Well at least it should be able to be purchased multiple times... mabye add in a Resist PTD... =D (Just joking around a little.)

 

[Wilde_Night]

No. No, no, no. :cry:
Mystic Wood Elves are believed to be half elf and half fae, hence elf ears and satyr horns. I've never had an issue weaing my ears for comfort. In fact, I will sleep with my ears and horns on all weekend. I like my MWE racial requirements.

As for special "marks". Ack... you mean my MWE might have to have ANOTHER mark on her face somewhere. She already has the symbol of death tattooed over her eye and wears war 'paint' depending her mood.

Please, if it isn't broke don't try to fix it.