Race Balance: Hoblings

[Cedric]

While we don't have a lot of PvP in Denver, we do have quite a few encounters that are statted and played more like a PvP encounter. This includes balanced group vs group (6 PCs on a module vs 6 NPCs of the same level with basically PC stats). Each chapter I'm sure has their own way of balancing encounters. That's not all we have here, but it happens regularly.

 

[Draven]

I fully intend to use Racial Dodge + Karma (I know it was renamed) to Bane Arcane Obliterates back at whatever chucked it.

Or just to show how utterly broken that combination is.

:-|

 

[Mulgrum]

As a Hobling I think the unlimited racial dodge change isn't the best course. Limit it to 1 per X build spent. Make it a big number, I'd say 100 but I'm just spitballing here. If the owners want racials to be purchasable more than once tie them all into a number of build spent. I'd honestly be fine with nothing changing about Hobling at all, the only thing I wanted was the fighter restriction to disappear, and that's a minor concern at best.

 

[Tayl]

Also speaking as a hobling, I dislike the change to racial dodge allowing it to be purchased multiple times. It seemed very intuitive to me that certain racials were limited to one purchase due to their power.

I believe that the 1.3 hobling racials are balanced as is and do not need changing.

 

[Saephis]

I believe that the 1.3 hobling racials are balanced as is and do not need changing.

This is in regards to the 0.9 Proposal, with the single purchase limitation removed.

 

[Tayl]

I'm sorry, I must have worded my post poorly. I am saying that I believe the current version of hoblings is good and removing the single purchase limitation is not good. I do not think they should have such a powerful racial ability have unlimited purchases.

 

[Muir]

I often find large discrepancies between what people say they will do and what they actually do. If you want to dedicate 10 Levels to having 10 dodges, that's fine with me. That's 4 Columns of spells, 3 points of damage all day, etc. People generally need 1-2 dodges for DFMs/Insta Resurrection effects. Beyond that, it's rare to see a dodge blown on a web etc. (it happens and would happen marginally more but it's not that bad)

Dave, I expect we'll see a good bit more of that under 2.0, because what those Dodges aren't being used against now is everything that players have a pocket full of cloaks/banes for. With those going away, Dodge is becoming much more valuable as the only real universal smart defensive.

 

[Gilwing]

I've said it before, but it bears repeating. 10 BP is a higher cost than any skill it will be stopping, even if the skill is delivered by a split class character. The only way 10 BP is equal or less is if the skill was taken by an off-class character (fighter memorizing spells) or in the rare cases of a split tree scholar (a 9th level spell from the second tree costs 10 BP). That is the main reason that I really don't mind unlimited potential to purchase dodges.

Or "Spell Strike Obliterate"

Also, I don't worry about this stepping on the toes of rogues because the cost is not negligible. 10 BP is a massive cost. Very little in the game costs that much and players only willingly purchase something for that much if it is HIGHLY efficient (shields for scholars, for example) or absolutely mandatory to their IG plans (orc fighters buying R&W to become nobles, for example). Furthermore, at some point the player will feel they have enough (that is true for every single defense), at which point, they have spent twice as much as rogues have for the exact same ability, which is a big hit to efficiency.

When the next prof cost +30 (or 40) build, i'll get 3 (or 4) dodges instead and every build after that will just go to more dodges.

 

[Shades]

When the next prof cost +30 (or 40) build, i'll get 3 (or 4) dodges instead and every build after that will just go to more dodges.

8 profs is 204 build which let's you swing for 10s. As a Hobling fighter, I could see that and say 50 extra build in miscellaneous skills, then every level after 25 is another dodge, which seems pretty good.

 

[Tantarus]

8 profs is 204 build which let's you swing for 10s. As a Hobling fighter, I could see that and say 50 extra build in miscellaneous skills, then every level after 25 is another dodge, which seems pretty good.

You would be surpised, just parry, slay, imp slay, riposte, evis adds up to 100ish build, that is not even getting stun limbs, disarms, shatters etc.

That said hobling is the answer to the other threads how to make fighters more viable...

 

[Avaran]

Another point to bring up is that eventually, Melee hits a damage cap (the main source of Fighter/Rogue pre-req build for skills you actually want) and therefore a cap on how many class skills they can buy (this is 8 Profs plus accompanying sub skills like Parry, Evis, Slay, Imp Slay, etc.). This means that build after a certain point is best spent in other areas. Whether that is a Paragon Path (50 build) or Racial Dodge (5 dodges for 50 build). This is around the 370 build mark. With Pay-No-Play and season passes, it doesn't take long to get to that point (3-4 years with aggressive blanketing/season pass buying). I can't harp on that point enough. 1 more point of damage for 45 build (durp) or 4-5 dodges for that same build? Pretty sure I'll take those Dodges.

 

[markusdark]

For the record, I voted wrong. Didn't read the question correctly and voted Yes when I meant No.

I believe exactly what Avaran/Adam has stated. With the ability to buy your way into more build (I've done it and surpassed my character of 10 years of just playing regular games within 3 of the various chapter pay-no-play and gobbie blankets for donation) that there will be a tipping point where the cost to do a minimal amount of damage will pale in comparison to avoid just about anything thrown at you multiple times. I can't count the number of times my rogue dodges have saved me at opportune times. And for a Hobling you just have to glue on some sideburns? I've worn them. They're barely more irritating than elf ears and about as troublesome as having to deal with the gemstones in the forehead (at least for me as my forehead likes to wrinkle quite a bit) And if you get professional grade sideburns, you only realize you have them if the glue begins to fail.

A suggestion, if the intent is to keep the Hobling nimble and keep on rising up in dodges, is why not give it an exponential type of purchase. Something like the first one is 10 build, second one is 20, third is 30, etc. It will still give them a bit of an edge (I haven't done all the calculations with the system to compare it to rogue purchases) but you'll eventually reach a point where that minimal amount of damage will be much cheaper than the dodge.

In fact, I probably would suggest such a progression change for any/all of the racial abilities that have an effect on combat. Else there will come a time to just buy more of them instead of progressing in other areas.

 

[markusdark]

Double post, sorry...

 

[Saephis]

Against my (previous) own council (hah), I've adjusted the poll to allow changed votes. There's been at least a few people in this thread to say "I hit the wrong thing" or "Man, I read that wrong."

 

[A.mungo]

For those who play hoblings, would you still play them if they had no restrictions, and only resist poison/remove poison for example?

 

[Cedric]

Tony - Yes. Right now my hobling is scout. He may go fighter depending on the state of fighters when the rules are released. Honestly resist poison is pretty balanced against just having to wear sideburns. It's good enough for me. Personally though I think it's also pretty balanced to keep the ability to purchase just one dodge for 10 build.

Also, call me crazy...but I like the RP of the hobling....maybe though that doesn't matter for a lot of people on here.

 

[Mulgrum]

For those who play hoblings, would you still play them if they had no restrictions, and only resist poison/remove poison for example?

No, as an Earth caster its a direct reduction to my survivability for little trade. I'd just be a Human with costume requirements for a skill I simply don't care about. As I have stated before I don't believe any changes need to be made to Hoblings and unlimited racials are probably not a good idea.

 

[Tantarus]

For those who play hoblings, would you still play them if they had no restrictions, and only resist poison/remove poison for example?

No. I rarely if every use it. And in the summer the burns are pretty annoying. I tend to sweat them off. I became a hobling to get a dodge as an earth templar as over the previous 2 years before the change I had dodged Arcane Shatter spirit or Oblits atleast 3 different times. And was tired of tracking down 1 shots to have as back ups.

 

[Inaryn]

For those who play hoblings, would you still play them if they had no restrictions, and only resist poison/remove poison for example?

Yup. I picked hobling for my artisan because of the role play. I haven't even purchased any of my racials for her.

 

[Tayl]

I would be sad if hobling's racial dodge went away, but I would not stop playing a hobling because of it. I would prefer them having restrictions and having the racial dodge.