Race Balance: Hoblings

[Avaran]

I'm actually really glad you brought up the following two points. I think they are very much worth discussing/thinking about.

Unless you've hit a wall on skill purchases, there's no reason to buy racial dodge over skill dodge.

This is the exact point I have been trying to make over the last month or so. Fighters hit wall on skill purchases - I include Stun Limb in that (and all other) calculations. This skill hit comes at around the 370-380 build mark (depending on preferences). A mark that doesn't take very long to get to these days because of Pay-No-Play and the massive number of Season Passes available for purchase. Given that, this problem is NOT five or 10 years out for current mid-level players, it's 3-4 years out, at most, if they take advantage of even just two or three chapters' season passes.

you could instead be either purchasing your base skills, or branching out for greater benefit or access.

For the purposes of my response, I am going to conclude that by "base skills" you mean Profs/BS. I do this because I am concluding that you see/accept the existence of a Build Wall, whereby no usable Fighter skills are further available for purchase without putting more build into less-than-average/poor Fighter Skills or more Profs.

As this Wall pertains to the High Level game, I am going to outline the Fighter Skills that I think are not worth buying. This is either because the skill itself is bad for the high level game (monsters immune, not effective enough, "why would you do that?").

These are:
Disarm - most monsters at high level use claws or are immune to this. Plus, up to now, most casters I run with memorize Disarms for lack of anything better at level 1. I'm talking more than 10-12 Disarms on just one caster just from memory. I'm not including magic items because they will be changing.
Shatter - 100% of monsters I've encountered in the high level game are immune to shatter if you target weapons, and none wear armor.
Intercept - Parry/Spell Parry is just flat out better in all ways. Looking back over the years, I can't think of a single situation where this skill would have made a difference except for 1, and my Parry one-shot items got me through. Intercept would have just made me Res in the particular situation I am thinking of.
Hearty - HP matters very little to a PC Fighter at high level. In my experience, 97% of things that I have to worry about are take-out effects (Prison, Paralysis, Web, Confine, etc.). Yes, body is helpful, but it's probably the least important resource a Fighter has at high level when facing casters/magic items/BBGs. I have found that the body that I have just through the process of leveling is more than enough, I don't feel like I need more.
Resolute - Admittedly, probably worth considering, but the moment I (or an Intelligent NPC) hear(s) a "Resolute" being called, I know that target has 1 HP and is basically done anyway. It basically puts a really big target on your head. Can be good if you're running away, I guess? It would be amazing for a Caster/Scholar, but not really Fighters, imho.


These are the skills I DO get:
Prof
Parry
Riposte
Slay
Imp Slay
Eviscerate
Stun Limb

Now, let's take a look at high-level Fighter Prof costs.
Prof 8 costs 36 Build, swing 10, total 204 total build spent in only profs.
Prof 9 costs 39 Build, swing 11, total 243 total build spent in only profs.
Prof 10 costs 42 Build, swing 12, total 285 total build spent in only profs.
Prof 11 costs 45 Build, swing 13, total 330 total build spent in only profs.
Prof 12 costs 45 Build, swing 14, total 375 total build spent in only profs.
Prof 13 costs 45 Build, swing 15, total 420 total build spent in only profs.

There are certain break points for both BackStabs and Weapon Profs. These break points for Fighters are:
3 Profs (to swing 5)
8 Profs (to swing 10)

For Rogues, the break points are:
4 Backstabs (to swing 10)
9 Backstabs (to swing 20)

Why are these "break points"? Because NPC's -- intentionally or not -- always round damage to the nearest multiple of 5 if the damage is 5 or greater, for quicker calculations. It just happens, that's how it is and there's not a whole lot that can be done about it, if anything.

Further, this issue is compounded by the scaling costs of Profs/Backstabs. I very much doubt we will ever see a Fighter that swings for 15 with a one-handed weapon AND who had a full loadout of Fighter Skills (they would have to be level 60+) any time soon (even with pay-no-play and Season Passes).

So, once you purchase the max number of Profs/Backstabs at the high-level break point, it is literally more build efficient to do ANYTHING ELSE except buy more Profs/Backstabs. I get better potential value as a Fighter buying Spells than I do buying Prof #9 (or higher).

Look at it this way: I'm not spending 50 build so that I can swing 11 only to have an NPC mentally pare that down to 10. But for the sake of discussion, let's say I do that. Now I can buy 1 or two more of each Fighter skill (one Parry, one Slay, one Imp Slay, one Eviscerate, one Stun Limb). Yes, it lets me do MORE of what I was already doing, but what it doesn't do is it doesn't help me deal with what I need to be able to deal with in the high-level game, namely Spells/Takeout Effects, and Deliveries that aren't using the Weapon Qualifier. That is a lot of things I cannot deal with as a high level Fighter so that I am not an utter resource drain on my friends. I need to be able to deal with things that aren't weapons on my own for at least an attack or four. Even now, I do a lot of standing behind Scholars in a lot of fights/encounters because I can't deal with whatever is being thrown; I have to wait for an opening and strike (enter rant about Flurry 3 here).

So let's look at Skill Dodge. Skill Dodge requires 30 Rogue XP plus 8 Build for a Fighter to buy the skill, so 38 total build for a Fighter. That's almost 4 levels.
With 270 build spent in Fighter skills, you can buy SIX Stun Limbs (45 Fighter/Rogue XP each), with that, you will only have 18 Rogue Points built up. So you would need 12 additional Rogue XP in addition to the 8 XP it would cost you to get a Skill Dodge. That is twenty additional build you would need to spend to get a Skill Dodge. It is possible to get useful Rogue skills (Waylay, maybe Counteract) to get that first Skill Dodge, but at that point Waylay will likely not see use due to Immune NPC's, and Counteract is HIGHLY situational. For that twenty Build, I could have two Racial Dodges and be able to defend myself against twice as many take-out effects than if I had gone for the Skill Dodge.

Dodge - whether Skill Dodge or Racial Dodge - gives Fighters the tool they need to deal with Packet attacks and take-out effects. And the simple fact that we're sitting here having the discussion about why Fighters would take Racial Dodge over other skills that we are supposed to want should be concerning.

 

[norman b]

As someone who played a kin and took claws and racial slay, in 2.0 my kin will take racial dodge and probably resist poison (Same as a hobling). The only reason I'm not changing race, is because of the story we have as kin... But if all those players changed race, I'm playing hobling.

Racial dodge being unlimited means I'm buying at least 3 if not more. And that's on top of my skills as a rogue.

Racial dodge costing 10 isn't a deterrent. As a rogue, it costs me 35 for my first dodge (30 for access 5 for the Dodge) and each subsequent will cost 30 (25 more needed for access and 5 for the Dodge). So yeah, I will buy probably 4 backstabs, 2-4 evades and my 3 dodges for a little over 100 build, some weapon skills (that don't count), and then 3-4 racial dodges? Only because at 10 points a piece, and rogue skills being meh at best, dodges are way cheaper and just better over all. I evade 'large' damage and Dodge all eviscerates/terminates/insta deaths. Fighters cost way more for dodges, because they don't buy many rogue skills.

If racial dodge for sideburns isn't OP for cheap, I don't know what is.

 

[mikestrauss]

Adam,
Can you explain some of your very weird math above? It isn't even vaguely consistent with the playtest information.

According to the playtest information, prof 13 costs 45 build, but you claim it costs 99 build. Where do you get that number from?

Also, for the record, I have NPC'd on and off for over 20 years. I have never rounded to the nearest 5. We teach our NPCs not to do that and if they absolutely have to round, to always round up.

-MS

 

[Gilwing]

Adam,
Can you explain some of your very weird math above? It isn't even vaguely consistent with the playtest information.

According to the playtest information, prof 13 costs 45 build, but you claim it costs 99 build. Where do you get that number from?

Also, for the record, I have NPC'd on and off for over 20 years. I have never rounded to the nearest 5. We teach our NPCs not to do that and if they absolutely have to round, to always round up.

-MS

Mike. I highly doubt 6's are rounded to 10. Just saying.

 

[Gilwing]

These are the skills I DO get:
Prof
Parry
Riposte
Slay
Imp Slay
Eviscerate
Stun Limb

Now, let's take a look at high-level Fighter Prof costs.
Prof 8 costs 39 Build, swing 10, total 204 build spent in profs.
Prof 9 costs 49 Build, swing 11, total 243 build spent in profs.
Prof 10 costs 60 Build, swing 12, total 285 build spent in profs.
Prof 11 costs 72 Build, swing 13, total 330 build spent in profs.
Prof 12 costs 85 Build, swing 14, total 375 build spent in profs.
Prof 13 costs 99 Build, swing 15, total 420 build spent in profs.

Adam,
Can you explain some of your very weird math above? It isn't even vaguely consistent with the playtest information.

According to the playtest information, prof 13 costs 45 build, but you claim it costs 99 build. Where do you get that number from?

Also, for the record, I have NPC'd on and off for over 20 years. I have never rounded to the nearest 5. We teach our NPCs not to do that and if they absolutely have to round, to always round up.

-MS

Mike his math is correct in Build totals up until the 12th prof. Its actually MORE
8 profs total = 204
9 243 (39)
10 285 (42)
11 330 (45)
12 378 (+48)
13 429 (+51)

 

[Avaran]

Adam,
Can you explain some of your very weird math above? It isn't even vaguely consistent with the playtest information.

According to the playtest information, prof 13 costs 45 build, but you claim it costs 99 build. Where do you get that number from?

*sigh*

Sorry, I had like four drafts to that post and in that one I mis-labeled. My mind was thinking build, but meant to type total crit attacks needed and I meant to go back to build/omit some info and didn't. It says what I meant it to say now.

Thanks for catching that @mikestrauss

 

[Avaran]

Mike his math is correct in Build totals up until the 12th prof. Its actually MORE
8 profs total = 204
9 243 (39)
10 285 (42)
11 330 (45)
12 378 (+48)
13 429 (+51)

It caps out at +45 build at Prof 11 and higher if I read the scaling thing right. I'll fix my last post to say what I actually mean for that section.

 

[dontneednoname]

I like the scaling profs and stabs as little as you do but your calculations are wrong because of this:

Lastly, sources of persistent damage (Weapon Proficiency and Backstab) become harder to purchase as you buy more of them. Each one takes one additional “turn in skill” (either Critical Attack or Back Attack respectively) for each Weapon Proficiency or Backstab you’ve already purchased, up to the 10th purchase (it never costs more than 14 Critical Attacks or Back Attacks respectively). This helps close some of the gap between high-level players and low-level players, and gives additional reason to spread build expenditure around instead of just buying Weapon Proficiencies or Backstabs at high levels.

Profs and stabs stop scaling after the tenth purchase. So profs and stabs will never cost more than 42 build (still horribly expensive). This is a direct quote from the .9 document.

 

[Avaran]

I like the scaling profs and stabs as little as you do but your calculations are wrong because of this:

Lastly, sources of persistent damage (Weapon Proficiency and Backstab) become harder to purchase as you buy more of them. Each one takes one additional “turn in skill” (either Critical Attack or Back Attack respectively) for each Weapon Proficiency or Backstab you’ve already purchased, up to the 10th purchase (it never costs more than 14 Critical Attacks or Back Attacks respectively). This helps close some of the gap between high-level players and low-level players, and gives additional reason to spread build expenditure around instead of just buying Weapon Proficiencies or Backstabs at high levels.

Profs and stabs stop scaling after the tenth purchase. So profs and stabs will never cost more than 42 build (still horribly expensive). This is a direct quote from the .9 document.

I understand this and already corrected it.

And while it's "nice" that there is a Constant Damage ceiling, it literally makes everyone doing the same damage based on the break points listed above. This is directly contradictory to the idea of 2.0 getting rid of the "everyone was doing the same build" paradigm.

Because Profs/Backstabs are the main XP dump for building up XP in the style you choose, there's little to nothing that will truly make up that difference.

Why?

Because all of the Skills prerequisite costs didn't change.

I need the same amount of build-spent as pre-requisites in 2.0 as I do in 1.3.

A Parry in 1.3 needs 2 Profs, which cost 30 build and costs 4 build.
A Parry in 2.0 needs 30 Fighter XP spent and costs 4 build.

I literally can't buy only Parries now. I can't buy only Parries in 2.0. I'm still forced to buy Weapon Profs.

At high enough level, you hit the damage ceiling and you're stuck branching out or buying more stupidly expensive Profs for effectively no gain.

Wear Extra Armor and Blacksmithing are the only Fighter Skills with no XP-spent/Skill requirement, and I'm not going to buy either of those two skills.

Even Rogues have Waylay that only requires a Weapon Skill...which again, it more tempting to buy than Prof 9.

Scholars do not have this problem. They can happily buy as many of their class skills/spell slots/high magic without any scaling costs or detrimental effect; in fact, they only get better when doing so, and in the case of Celestial Scholars, get Free Damage (wands) on top of it all.

To your last point:

Profs and stabs stop scaling after the tenth purchase. So profs and stabs will never cost more than 42 build (still horribly expensive). This is a direct quote from the .9 document.

If this is the case, then the Character Builder spreadsheet is wrong, because it says it hits the ceiling at Prof 11, not 10.

Prof 10 requires 13 Crit Attacks before purchase, and Prof 11 and above requires 14, according to the Character Builder.

 

[dontneednoname]

All the other stuff your saying, Avaran, you're preaching to the choir. I think the scaling profs and stabs are unfair and a mistake. I agree with what you are saying about fighters in 2.0. Off topic now so I'm done.

 

[Saephis]

I understand that Fighter Weapon Proficiencies are still a hot topic, however please keep this thread to the subject of "Do you feel the Racial Requirements for Hoblings are appropriate for the Racial Bonuses they're provided?". We don't need ninety topics straying back to Weapon Proficiencies.

 

[Avaran]

I understand that Fighter Weapon Proficiencies are still a hot topic, however please keep this thread to the subject of "Do you feel the Racial Requirements for Hoblings are appropriate for the Racial Bonuses they're provided?". We don't need ninety topics straying back to Weapon Proficiencies.

True. I felt it was okay since the conversation turned to "Value compared to other skills", among them "doing more of what you already do.

I think it highlights the fundamental interconnectedness (thanks Dirk Gently) of the system and how one thing can affect the value of another.

 

[Saephis]

I don't disagree with that, necessarily, but these forums have a tendency to rabbit-hole topics. Moreover, for the fighter topic, they'll likely have more access to normal Dodge than Scholars, considering the state of proposed rules.

As it stands, we do still have an overwhelming majority of "I don't feel sideburns gets you Racial Dodge and Resist Poison with unlimited buys of each -- build cost aside" at 16 'Yes, this seems valid and balanced requirements' to 41 'Hold on a second, there'.

 

[Gilwing]

I sent this about 5 hours ago but it didnt post.
Adam your correct about it stopping past 11. I forgot that.
The whole point of this is at +45build I will just purchase 4 dodges instead.

 

[Sspyndel]

I voted yes, simply because I see choices opening up for our two Hobblings.. if they chose to take them. Both ours do a little more RP and costuming flavour then the requirements already, and I'd just like to see them happier. As stated above, unlimited doesn't mean they'll by 10 /day. Allowing them to become hearty and a fighter? opens up new worlds for Diggs and Yetta!

 

[Daimyo Shi]

Can adjusting the build points for racial dodge fix this objection to unlimited buys.

 

[Graham Wolsey]

Everything is balanced if it costs enough.

I'd suggest that at 25 no one would have objections to unlimited buys not even the most stalwart person against the proposal.

For me personally, I'd still be thrilled to buy dodge at 15 on a Fighter at unlimited purchases.

 

[Saephis]

As much as I don't like the concept of it alone, if the "Cost Progression" we currently see with Backstab and Weapon Proficiency goes through, I'd be in favor of racial abilities taking either a double-cost or half-base-again for successive purchases like this.

10 -> 20 -> 30, etc.
10 -> 15 -> 20, etc.

 

[MondayMcGee]

That would throw a pretty big wrench into how biata and stone elves "buy" access to their mental abilities, though.

 

[Saephis]

It also serves as a good reason to re-examine racial balances, rather than just "We removed some caps".