Race Balance: Hoblings

[mikestrauss]

Just as a comparison here.

Dwarf: Resist Poison, Sturdy, Blacksmith discount, beard
Hobling: Resist Poison, Frail, Racial Dodge, sideburns

Clearly, the Resist Poison cancels out as the benefits are identical. And while everyone has different comfort levels for costuming/allergies, I think beards and sideburns (I really did swear that thick eyebrows were also required at one point... but I guess not anymore?), in the aggregate, are roughly equal in terms of costuming annoyance.

That really just makes the question whether Racial Dodge + Frail = Blacksmith discount + Sturdy. Actually to be fair I should be using an approximately equal sign, but I don't know how to make it on my keyboard (since racial balance has never been, will never be, and basically can't be, exactly perfect).

Racial Dodge is good, no question, though in combination with Resist Poison, usually one or the other (depending on class/skill choices) usually loses value. For ease of comparison, I am putting that lost value on the Dodge (rather than on the Resist Poison) to make comparison easier. On the other hand, Blacksmith discount doesn't in any way step on the toes of Resist Poison or vice versa, which means dwarves are more likely to fully benefit from their racials.

Looking at all that, I think Racial Dodge with two small disadvantages (frail and the previously discussed value loss of racials that cover similar ground) is roughly equivalent to Blacksmith discount plus Sturdy. And, just as importantly, as suggested by someone else, Resist Poison, frail, and sideburns (with Racial Dodge removed) would be clearly worse than dwarf by a far margin.

-MS

 

[KyleSchmelz]

This might just be me, but Dwarf is the one race I would never play as a PC due to the beard. I can't stand wearing a fake beard for more than about an hour. I don't think sideburns and beards are equal.

 

[Saephis]

I'd say you're picking up my underlying intention that Races, in general, need rebalancing as seemingly every skill and ability is being revised in some way, @mikestrauss . This wasn't a "I only dislike Hoblings' racials advantages/disadvantages", by any means.

But, regarding your example, Dwarves really depend on the outcome of Blacksmith as a skill.

 

[mikestrauss]

This might just be me, but Dwarf is the one race I would never play as a PC due to the beard. I can't stand wearing a fake beard for more than about an hour. I don't think sideburns and beards are equal.

That is fair. I acknowledge that people have different comfort levels. However, in my experience playing the game, aggregating over all players, I believe that sideburns and beards are roughly equal. I have known players who throw on beards like they are nothing yet can't stand spirit gum for more than five seconds. I have also known players like you that are basically the exact opposite. I am not discounting your situation, just saying that I think the average player finds them both roughly equally annoying.

-MS

 

[Saephis]

I would challenge that, @mikestrauss . I'd estimate, roughly, three times as many Hoblings as Dwarves in the chapters I frequent. But, barring analysis on a national level, I suspect specific prosthesis "acceptance" is still going to be best categorized as "mileage may vary."

 

[Gilwing]

I feel that a beard is more annoying than sideburns (I thought fuzzy feet and eyebrows too Mike S.).

 

[Muir]

Both are annoying, really, but then I have a significant beard so neither is really effectively doable.

 

[Draven]

I would hate playing a Dwarf because my face would get so hot. :-(

 

[Gilwing]

I would hate playing a Dwarf because my face would get so hot. :-(

It sucks in the summer.....but its awesome in the winter.

 

[Jesse Grabowski]

Yet another example of something that wasn't broken in 1.3 and then changed for the sake of change. In addition, there was a time where Hoblings also had bushy eyebrows and backs of hands... not sure what happened over time there...

 

[Samyania]

In addition, there was a time where Hoblings also had bushy eyebrows and backs of hands... not sure what happened over time there...

Waxing and harmful human standards of beauty.

 

[Tevas]

Waxing and harmful human standards of beauty.

Hey now! Standards of beauty is the only racial ability humans get, don't take that away from us!

 

[Muir]

Yet another example of something that wasn't broken in 1.3 and then changed for the sake of change. In addition, there was a time where Hoblings also had bushy eyebrows and backs of hands... not sure what happened over time there...

Cynical me suggests that someone with the power to change it got tired of spirit gumming things to their hands.

 

[Inaryn]

Back to balance... I just made a hobling 300ish pt rogue sniper and a 300ish pt artisan chemist for the playtest we're having today... in neither case did I bother with the racial dodge... because the actual dodge was cheaper.

Which means side burns and a higher build cost for hearty... in exchange for resist poison.

 

[Avaran]

Back to balance... I just made a hobling 300ish pt rogue sniper and a 300ish pt artisan chemist for the playtest we're having today... in neither case did I bother with the racial dodge... because the actual dodge was cheaper.

I don't think there is any argument that Dodge is better than Racial Dodge for a Rogue - you're naturally buying Rogue Points as a Rogue to get the cheaper Dodge anyway.

I think the concern lies with other combat classes, in particular Fighters who - as I've brought up numerous times on these boards - eventually hit a wall with the Fighter Skills they can buy and the damage they can buy and don't really have anything else to spend their build on that is both useful and build-efficient (circa 370-380 build depending on preference). After that, it's 10 build per Racial Dodge as a Hobling Fighter, which has infinite value because it fills all of the holes of the class defensively that Magic Items used to fill.

Scholars don't have this issue, by the way. They can happily keep buying skills indefinitely that make them better at what they do - casting spells and rituals and increased numbers of Ritual Slots -- with zero scaling penalties and -- in the case of Celestial -- get free damage for their trouble (even if it is half or less than what it is now, it's still Free) just for doing what they would be doing already.

Artisans historically aren't a combat class, nor are they designed to be, therefore I don't think they are all that relevant to this particular discussion, i.e. you don't need Racial Dodge if you aren't designed to be in combat.

 

[Inaryn]

Except they're making artisan paragons that are designed to see combat.

Also, fighter pool gives you access to stun limb, in the rogue section. Which gives you rogue pool. Which gives you access to dodge and counteract which is actually pretty amazing from our play test yesterday.

I crunched the numbers. Scholars are the only class that has to actually go out of their way to get skill dodges. Every other class gets access to them through base skill purchases. And the cost for skill dodge is better than racial.

Unless you've hit a wall on skill purchases, there's no reason to buy racial dodge over skill dodge. Even so, you're still spending an entire level on one skill, when you could instead be either purchasing your base skills, or branching out for greater benefit or access.

Pigeon holing your character into only one skill set is your choice as a player. There's nothing *wrong* with that, but if you do that, you have to accept the results of your choice.

 

[Muir]

In this case we've been told repeatedly by ARC and Owners that it is a specific design and balance choice that Artisan not be considered a combat-capable class.

 

[Inaryn]

In this case, that's really irrelevant. Dodge is the best get away from combat skill outside of paragon options, which artisans are still going to get cheaper through skill dodge because of both alchemy and create trap.

 

[Gilwing]

Except they're making artisan paragons that are designed to see combat.

That's so that people that play an artisan won't complain that they aren't getting any love.

Unless you've hit a wall on skill purchases, there's no reason to buy racial dodge over skill dodge. Even so, you're still spending an entire level on one skill, when you could instead be either purchasing your base skills, or branching out for greater benefit or access.

See my comment on how I wont get any more profs past a number due to the exponential cost for them and will just use the rest of my build for dodge.

 

[Inaryn]

That's so that people that play an artisan won't complain that they aren't getting any love.

>.> As someone with an artisan, I'd kind of rather see an Artisan paragon that focuses on the crafting aspect and not trying to make combat viable for the class.