ROCKS FOR CASTERS

Hammerfist

Artisan
That is why this is a team game... the fighter asks his friends for protectives. He then 8 normal, PTD Evicerates the caster. Fighter are not underpowered as a class, fighters are underpowered vs spells. Just like Casters are underpowered vs weapon damage, and rogues are underpowered when fighting face to face. It is how balance is applied to all classes.

-John W.
 
Ghost said:
Duke Frost said:
Fighters are certainly not underpowered.
Scott
Okay, so this is probably a dumpy thing to pick out of your response, but I have to comment. :)

Looking at it from a PvP perspective (or even a non-PvP perspective, depending on what you're running):

If you take a fighter who has no magic items, and pit him/her against a caster with at least 1 9th level spell, the fighter will lose every time in just about every combat situation, assuming a 100% hit rate by the caster (think prison/death, depending on school of caster). Sure, the fighter can bust out an Eviscerate or a Slay, but that would be nullified by the caster's Magic Armor.

Fighters have zero built-in spell defenses. Rogues do (Dodge), Templars do, Adepts do (Dodge), even Hoblings (who can't be Fighters), Dark Elves (resist Magic), and Sarrs have built-in racial options. (I know I am missing some, but it's late.)

Without battle and ritual casters to provide spell defenses and magic items, Fighters are very under-powered against casters (especially with their large array of one-shot take-outs). Just sayin'.
Alliance LARP is not a PvP game, though of course pvp happens sometimes. When it does happen, its usually not one vs one. It's also designed to encourage a lot of teamwork. If you are not playing it as a shared group endeavor, you're missing 95% of the game.

You've also taken the quote completely out of context, as we were discussing damage dealing power.

Scott
 

Octaine

Artisan
Maxondaerth said:
I could say the same thing for casters....just stand behind the fighters and throw and things while they are distracted by the fighters. To say that Playing a fighter is easy because all you do is swing....thats wrong. It might be what you do but not me. "oh look its a goblin let me evs it..." thats a dumb fighter or you just want to waist your skills.

I was more speaking to the strategy involved of conserving resources, allocating them to which fight/target, etc as far as ease of play.

I see a troll as a fighter, I'm thinking sword. I see one as a caster, I'm thinking fire, unless I'm out, then maybe binding, maybe lightning if they don't swing that hard.
I see an undead as a fighter, I'm thinking sword. I see one as a caster, I'm thinking okay no ice, if any of them speaks hit em with big boom, if not small binding will work.
I see kobolds as a fighter, I'm thinking sword. I see kobolds as a caster, I'm thinking maybe I won't even use spells, I'll use weapon, unless I get into body then mid stuff.
I see a dragon as a fighter, I"m thinking sword. I see dragon as a caster, I'm thinking fighter.

You see what I'm getting at there? As far as ease of playing a fighter, I'm talking about you can take anyone NPCing and plug them into a fighter with any level of stats, but take that same person and if they have no experience as a mage their going to make poor spell selection choices and not make the most of their stuff. So, I'm going to change my inferred statement to "In my experience in playing both a battle caster and a fighter, it is my opinion based on said experiences that it takes a lot more strategy and forethought to play a caster over the length of a weekend than it is a fighter."[/quote]

Lets see as a fighter I have to protect the healers, casters, and weaker fighters. I then have to land my blows while avoiding the monsters attacks. I then have to select which skills I want to use at the correct time so my PTD or Evis dont get dodged, phased or whatever. I then need the physical enegery to keep fighting at my best plus in the meantime physicaly dodeging spell packets, and gas globes since I am on the front line. Not to mention keeping the monster distracted so the rogues can make thier back attakcs.....oh wait I just swing thats right.
 

Octaine

Artisan
Duke Frost said:
Ghost said:
Duke Frost said:
Fighters are certainly not underpowered.
Scott
Okay, so this is probably a dumpy thing to pick out of your response, but I have to comment. :)

Looking at it from a PvP perspective (or even a non-PvP perspective, depending on what you're running):

If you take a fighter who has no magic items, and pit him/her against a caster with at least 1 9th level spell, the fighter will lose every time in just about every combat situation, assuming a 100% hit rate by the caster (think prison/death, depending on school of caster). Sure, the fighter can bust out an Eviscerate or a Slay, but that would be nullified by the caster's Magic Armor.

Fighters have zero built-in spell defenses. Rogues do (Dodge), Templars do, Adepts do (Dodge), even Hoblings (who can't be Fighters), Dark Elves (resist Magic), and Sarrs have built-in racial options. (I know I am missing some, but it's late.)

Without battle and ritual casters to provide spell defenses and magic items, Fighters are very under-powered against casters (especially with their large array of one-shot take-outs). Just sayin'.
Alliance LARP is not a PvP game, though of course pvp happens sometimes. When it does happen, its usually not one vs one. It's also designed to encourage a lot of teamwork. If you are not playing it as a shared group endeavor, you're missing 95% of the game.

You've also taken the quote completely out of context, as we were discussing damage dealing power.

Scott

Agreed Scott pvp is almost NEVER 1v1, I know from experience.

I dont think we will see the true power of wands until w get a team of high level casters using them. The same went for rocks. The rule on rocks was the same for over a year but had to be changed due to high level fighters basically rolling thru monsters with ranged attacks.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
Octaine said:
Agreed Scott pvp is almost NEVER 1v1, I know from experience.

I dont think we will see the true power of wands until w get a team of high level casters using them. The same went for rocks. The rule on rocks was the same for over a year but had to be changed due to high level fighters basically rolling thru monsters with ranged attacks.
So... me, you, your brother, steve, jesi... we need one more person, 6 spirit forges and two race changes ;-)
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
tieran said:
Octaine said:
Agreed Scott pvp is almost NEVER 1v1, I know from experience.

I dont think we will see the true power of wands until w get a team of high level casters using them. The same went for rocks. The rule on rocks was the same for over a year but had to be changed due to high level fighters basically rolling thru monsters with ranged attacks.
So... me, you, your brother, steve, jesi... we need one more person, 6 spirit forges and two race changes ;-)
Matt
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
awesome... lets get on this!
 

Octaine

Artisan
Holy crpa that would be like the 1927 Yankees!!!!!!!!! or for those you who dont know baseball history this is the team that had Ruth, Gehrig, and Meusel. **Ruth hit 60 hrs that year.......WITHOUT THE JUICE****
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
sword, board, 9 column celestial and then formals?
 

Alavatar

Baron
Octaine said:
Gilwing said:
I could say the same thing for casters....just stand behind the fighters and throw and things while they are distracted by the fighters. To say that Playing a fighter is easy because all you do is swing....thats wrong. It might be what you do but not me. "oh look its a goblin let me evs it..." thats a dumb fighter or you just want to waist your skills.

Maxondaerth said:
I was more speaking to the strategy involved of conserving resources, allocating them to which fight/target, etc as far as ease of play.

I see a troll as a fighter, I'm thinking sword. I see one as a caster, I'm thinking fire, unless I'm out, then maybe binding, maybe lightning if they don't swing that hard.
I see an undead as a fighter, I'm thinking sword. I see one as a caster, I'm thinking okay no ice, if any of them speaks hit em with big boom, if not small binding will work.
I see kobolds as a fighter, I'm thinking sword. I see kobolds as a caster, I'm thinking maybe I won't even use spells, I'll use weapon, unless I get into body then mid stuff.
I see a dragon as a fighter, I"m thinking sword. I see dragon as a caster, I'm thinking fighter.

You see what I'm getting at there? As far as ease of playing a fighter, I'm talking about you can take anyone NPCing and plug them into a fighter with any level of stats, but take that same person and if they have no experience as a mage their going to make poor spell selection choices and not make the most of their stuff. So, I'm going to change my inferred statement to "In my experience in playing both a battle caster and a fighter, it is my opinion based on said experiences that it takes a lot more strategy and forethought to play a caster over the length of a weekend than it is a fighter."
Lets see as a fighter I have to protect the healers, casters, and weaker fighters. I then have to land my blows while avoiding the monsters attacks. I then have to select which skills I want to use at the correct time so my PTD or Evis dont get dodged, phased or whatever. I then need the physical enegery to keep fighting at my best plus in the meantime physicaly dodeging spell packets, and gas globes since I am on the front line. Not to mention keeping the monster distracted so the rogues can make thier back attakcs.....oh wait I just swing thats right.
I think you are not understanding where Jeff (i.e. Maxondearth) is coming from. He plays his fighter much more then he plays his caster, so he is not biased towards his caster. He understands that there is probably more skill involved in playing in playing a fighter, but over-all, he is saying there is more strategy required to play a caster due to limited power.

Fighters use a sword/weapon. They need to be skilled in the use of it in order to land their blows. Everything else just kind of flows into the mix.

Casters throw packets. The only skill they need is to hit a target, any part of that target, to be effective. But they need to know when to throw their packets and what to throw in order to maximize their damage potential while a Fighter can swing with their profs. all day long.

That's all Jeff is trying to convey. He is not trying to belittle fighters or say being a caster requires a better player, just that being a caster requires more strategy due to the power constraints of the system.
 

Alavatar

Baron
Duke Frost said:
Ghost said:
Duke Frost said:
Fighters are certainly not underpowered.
Scott
Okay, so this is probably a dumpy thing to pick out of your response, but I have to comment. :)

Looking at it from a PvP perspective (or even a non-PvP perspective, depending on what you're running):

If you take a fighter who has no magic items, and pit him/her against a caster with at least 1 9th level spell, the fighter will lose every time in just about every combat situation, assuming a 100% hit rate by the caster (think prison/death, depending on school of caster). Sure, the fighter can bust out an Eviscerate or a Slay, but that would be nullified by the caster's Magic Armor.

Fighters have zero built-in spell defenses. Rogues do (Dodge), Templars do, Adepts do (Dodge), even Hoblings (who can't be Fighters), Dark Elves (resist Magic), and Sarrs have built-in racial options. (I know I am missing some, but it's late.)

Without battle and ritual casters to provide spell defenses and magic items, Fighters are very under-powered against casters (especially with their large array of one-shot take-outs). Just sayin'.
Alliance LARP is not a PvP game, though of course pvp happens sometimes. When it does happen, its usually not one vs one. It's also designed to encourage a lot of teamwork. If you are not playing it as a shared group endeavor, you're missing 95% of the game.

You've also taken the quote completely out of context, as we were discussing damage dealing power.

Scott
I think you missed Ghost's point. He is not trying to advocate PvP, he is trying to say that a Fighter without any magic items is not as powerful as everyone makes them out to be; that they have nothing to stop magical attacks at all. An enemy NPC can throw a Pin/Bind combo or a single Web or even just a couple Disarms to incapacitate a Fighter with no magical defense.

He was not focusing on the PvP aspect, just using that as an example.
 

Hammerfist

Artisan
Hammerfist said:
That is why this is a team game... the fighter asks his friends for protectives. He then 8 normal, PTD Evicerates the caster. Fighter are not underpowered as a class, fighters are underpowered vs spells. Just like Casters are underpowered vs weapon damage, and rogues are underpowered when fighting face to face. It is how balance is applied to all classes.

-John W.
 

doverman

Spellsword
As has been mentioned before, I am sure, the problem with this balance is that everyone runs out of abilities. Fighters use their PTD's, rogues use up their dodges, scholars use up their spells. The difference? When a fighter runs out of PTD, he stil has his profs. A rogue still has backstabs, etc. Scholars use up their spells? and they are done.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
And that is the price they pay for being scholars.

They have the option (like any other character) of buying a weapon skill.

Yes it is a relatively large outlay of build, if the decide to go whole hog (i.e. sword and board), but they can get cheap access to at least staff (and archery for elves).

Yes, they don't swing big damage. But they aren't fighters.

EDIT: Realized this sounds a little snarky... it should not be taken that way.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
wow... when did I sneak past you in level? ;-)
 

paythin

Adept
Why take sword and board when you can't use those item while using your wand, I mean sure you can use as a fall back if that's what you want but I would go with a 9 column and rits since it would be fun to enchant the wands I create.
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Alavatar said:
Octaine said:
Gilwing said:
I could say the same thing for casters....just stand behind the fighters and throw and things while they are distracted by the fighters. To say that Playing a fighter is easy because all you do is swing....thats wrong. It might be what you do but not me. "oh look its a goblin let me evs it..." thats a dumb fighter or you just want to waist your skills.

Maxondaerth said:
I was more speaking to the strategy involved of conserving resources, allocating them to which fight/target, etc as far as ease of play.

I see a troll as a fighter, I'm thinking sword. I see one as a caster, I'm thinking fire, unless I'm out, then maybe binding, maybe lightning if they don't swing that hard.
I see an undead as a fighter, I'm thinking sword. I see one as a caster, I'm thinking okay no ice, if any of them speaks hit em with big boom, if not small binding will work.
I see kobolds as a fighter, I'm thinking sword. I see kobolds as a caster, I'm thinking maybe I won't even use spells, I'll use weapon, unless I get into body then mid stuff.
I see a dragon as a fighter, I"m thinking sword. I see dragon as a caster, I'm thinking fighter.

You see what I'm getting at there? As far as ease of playing a fighter, I'm talking about you can take anyone NPCing and plug them into a fighter with any level of stats, but take that same person and if they have no experience as a mage their going to make poor spell selection choices and not make the most of their stuff. So, I'm going to change my inferred statement to "In my experience in playing both a battle caster and a fighter, it is my opinion based on said experiences that it takes a lot more strategy and forethought to play a caster over the length of a weekend than it is a fighter."
Lets see as a fighter I have to protect the healers, casters, and weaker fighters. I then have to land my blows while avoiding the monsters attacks. I then have to select which skills I want to use at the correct time so my PTD or Evis dont get dodged, phased or whatever. I then need the physical enegery to keep fighting at my best plus in the meantime physicaly dodeging spell packets, and gas globes since I am on the front line. Not to mention keeping the monster distracted so the rogues can make thier back attakcs.....oh wait I just swing thats right.
I think you are not understanding where Jeff (i.e. Maxondearth) is coming from. He plays his fighter much more then he plays his caster, so he is not biased towards his caster. He understands that there is probably more skill involved in playing in playing a fighter, but over-all, he is saying there is more strategy required to play a caster due to limited power.

Fighters use a sword/weapon. They need to be skilled in the use of it in order to land their blows. Everything else just kind of flows into the mix.

Casters throw packets. The only skill they need is to hit a target, any part of that target, to be effective. But they need to know when to throw their packets and what to throw in order to maximize their damage potential while a Fighter can swing with their profs. all day long.

That's all Jeff is trying to convey. He is not trying to belittle fighters or say being a caster requires a better player, just that being a caster requires more strategy due to the power constraints of the system.
Octaine is saying the same thing for fighters "Lets see as a fighter I have to protect the healers, casters, and weaker fighters. I then have to land my blows while avoiding the monsters attacks. I then have to select which skills I want to use at the correct time so my PTD or Evis dont get dodged, phased or whatever. I then need the physical enegery to keep fighting at my best plus in the meantime physicaly dodeging spell packets, and gas globes since I am on the front line. Not to mention keeping the monster distracted so the rogues can make thier back attakcs.....oh wait I just swing thats right."
Npcs have resist, phase, dodge and spell shield. They also have Magic armor, Phase, dodge, parry, repost and evade (for reg blows). Seems that the fighter with him/her limited ptds need to think more of when and which one to throw and the person and whom. Do they use it on the BBG or do they go for their right hand man.
 
I do think for the Pure scholar a wand is going to be a nice viable option for a recourse once your regular blocks of spells are used up and I think its nice that the discussion has come full circle around to this.

On thing that is true, that although yes fighters and rogues have their weapons to swing left once they are done with their once per day abilities. Scholars do get quite a few nicer abilities. Example a Fighter with 4 profs, full PTD's has 12 special abilities per day. A scholar with a full 4 column has 36 spells (or "special abilities") per day. So I think its pretty even. Now with wands Celestial casters at least with a 4 column and out will have a nice little packet gun for several battles when they don't want to pop their big blasts. =) And if you think about the number of arrows people usually bring to fights. (1 or 2 quivers in my experience I believe) that number of wand shots will be just fine. =)
 
Top