The people vs. arcane armor

evi1r0n

Baron
So there are a few folks with the ARCANE ARMOR IS BAD mentality. Why is this a thing? I am really curious why people dislike it so much. In my personal experience it has allowed me to costume myself in the way I want and look really good without having to break the bank on impressive armor for a very large dude.

The arguments I have heard against arcane armor is that physical armor is better for the game because it increases costuming quality, though I would argue the opposite. I have seen the rare suit of gorgeous armor that makes me drool a little but for the most part it's homemade semi-anachronistic suits made specifically to maximize points. The people who have arcanes are folks who have been playing for a while and usually have really solid costuming. It's just way easier and cheaper to make someone look really cool and in-genre with fabric than it is with armor. Anything that makes the game more accessible, financially, is a good thing IMO but I am not a high roller by any stretch of the imagination.

Now I am not coming out against physical armor. I think it's great and I salute those who wear platemail but I really dig the way I play the game, too.
 

Alavatar

Baron
Personally, I don't get it either, Ron.

I do understand that there is little motivation for a player to have Arcane Armor over real armor, given the choice. From an aesthetics perspective I don't see this as an issue. From a mechanics point of view, though, I think there should be a reward for wearing real armor and dealing with the weight and mobility reduction.

Idea - New skills:
Armor Proficiency
  • Description: Doubles the effective armor points for physical armor worn. Does not affect Arcane Armor, Celestial Armor, or Natural Armor. Example: Tommy the Fighter has Wear Extra Armor purchased once and a suit of armor + garb evaluated at 37 points and a 37 point armor tag. With this skill he is treated as effectively having 74 Armor.
  • Cost:
    • Fighter = 10 Build
    • Scout / Templar = 15 Build
    • Rogue = 20 Build
    • Adept / Artisan = 25 Build
    • Scholar = 30 Build
  • Pre-requisite = Level 10+
Armor Mastery
  • Description: Triples the effective armor points for physical armor worn. Does not affect Arcane Armor, Celestial Armor, or Natural Armor. Example: Tommy the Fighter has Wear Extra Armor purchased once and a suit of armor + garb evaluated at 37 points and a 37 point armor tag. With this skill he is treated as effectively having 111 Armor.
  • Cost:
    • Fighter = 10 Build
    • Scout / Templar = 15 Build
    • Rogue = 20 Build
    • Adept / Artisan = 25 Build
    • Scholar = 30 Build
  • Pre-requisite = Level 20+ and Armor Proficiency

:noway:
 

Toddo

Knight
HQ Staff
Marshal
I'm niether for or against AA, but I would like to see physical armor have a benefit over AA besides a potential extra 10 points. Not sure what form this would take but I think a non-magical protection aura effect equal to the lowest armor rating area on your body would make walking around in full plate a tactical choice. (by and large in a light touch boffer combat game the loss of mobility full heavy armor inflicts on you isn't worth a few extra points of armor, at least in my experience)
 

Breten

Artisan
I think the concern is it encourages laziness, and as a player it can be frustrating to interact with someone who essentially has "Hidden Armour". Our chapter only has one or two people with any amount of Arcane Armour, so this is based more on me guessing what issues people have with it.
 

ASFDan

Scholar
In my opinion, Arcane Armor is not "bad", per se, but I do believe that it acts as a foil for issues inherent in an armor system that places primary value on construction material over appearance and workmanship.

In other words, it gives us an easy out when faced with the question/complaint about "real" armor being too expensive/difficult to obtain- "Just get some Arcane or don't go for max"- instead of forcing us to examine whether there are flaws in the system that can be addressed to make it more accessible and player-friendly.
 

Kitaruen

Squire
Owner
Chicago Staff
I love real armor but feel for many character concepts or even races can be difficult thus i am fine with AA. I like it in most cases. I would like to see some benefits to physical armor to make it more tempting, either make armor max 50 as the 20 extra points is vary worth it, or give armor physical resists.

So you take the first digit of your armor and gain "Physical Resist" to any one weapon blow or PTD

So a 20 suit gets two of these and a 40 suit gets four of these. This is a clear benefit over arcane but not way overpowered especially if you have to spend say 5 build per to unlock it or to unlock more than the first one.

Just a few unpolished thoughts for discussion.

With that said I like Arcane vary much as long as the custome is still good.
 
I agree with Dan. Arcane Armor isn't a problem if the physical armor rules aren't as punitive and slated towards people who are strong, athletic and well off in real life, which are all traits that are already very beneficial to those players.
 

Undrask

Scholar
I dunno how many of you guys wear full breastplate, but that stuff is heavy, tiring, uncomfortable and seriously restricts your ability to fight. What's the motivation to do that if I can just be like, "MAGIC ARMOR OOOooOoOoOO" and have the same benefits with absolutely zero of the downsides. I wouldn't even have to learn blacksmithing to fix it.

I guess the question I'm asking is, what's the downside of Arcane Armor as compared to my pain, suffering and **** fighting? Why should I bother with real armor at all? I mean, I'm gonna wear it, I've already spent the money on it so screw it, but yeah, what's the point?
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
I'll add my 2 Kroner..

It's as other people say, it's not that Arcane Armor is bad... it's that physical armor doesn't have enough upsides to counteract the very real OOG (cost / discomfort) and IG (mobility restriction) penalties that must accompany it. That coupled with the fact that mobility/cost/discomfort increases at a faster rate than the armor points the closer you get to 40, means it's actually punitive to wear heavy armor. The only hard armor I wear is a gorget, and let me tell you, after a weekend, that thing is a pain in my neck, literally. If I was to wear a full suit of plate I'd be out a heck of a lot of money for the armor, less able to dodge packets, less able to land blows, and just all around objectively worse at fighting than the guy who is wearing pants and shirt (admittedly nice pants and shirt) and a 30 point AA.

Your reasoning for why you chose AA over armor is legit, very legit, but it does bring to light that the real world tradeoffs for physical armor make it objectively worse that physical armor most of the time.

If we allow greater racial abilities the more intense the makeup requirements are, shouldn't we do the same for our costuming (armor)?
 

Inaryn

Knight
How much do you think this suit *is* worth?

How much do you think this suit *should* be worth?



The problem isn't arcane armor. It's that stuff like the above, which would bring SO much more to our game, just isn't worth wearing with the antiquated restrictions on materials for our armor system. Currently, our system is materials > appearance. If the system was changed so that appearance > materials within reason, then I think we'd truly see people wearing more physical armor, which would only enhance our game across the board.
 

Lurin

Duke
I don't understand why people like the idea of that armor, that white armor for example is far too 'fantasy' in my mind. I'm all for making physical armor better than magical (or perhaps have a reverse armor rating system for AA where scholar is max at 30, and it's 15 for fighters)
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
ASFDan said:
Lurin said:
that white armor for example is far too 'fantasy' in my mind
Given the context that we're running a high fantasy LARP, this seems somewhat absurd. :huh:
Your Mileage May Vary on that one. There is a lot of latitude from chapter to chapter about theme and setting. I know that in Seattle he'd stick out like a sore thumb, but hey, that's a great RP opportunity.

Anyways, the material over appearance highlights that we want our physical armor to have real armor issues like weight, heat and mobility.... Then AA comes along and says, have all the benefits with only a minor (can't get past 30 armor) drawback. Oh, and you spend IG resources, not OOG ones. It means that as negative externalities aren't taken into account mechanically, physical armor is undervalued/AA is over-valued comparitively.
 

Warlok

Adept
Charlottesville Staff
The current maximum benefit that you can get from an Arcane Armor is equal to your current class' Max Armor rating + Wear Extra Armor + Formal Levels. If we want armor to be more important for Fighter-y types and AAs better for Scholarly types, perhaps we should change the first part of that equation, since it obviously benefits the Fighter-y types until Scholars get up to Formal Levels. Perhaps it can be set at a flat 15 max across the board and then add Wear Extra Armor and Formal Levels. That way, if you want your 30 AA as a Fighter, you invest in Wear Extra Armor and if you're a Scholar, you focus on getting some Formal Levels (or Wear Extra Armor if you need it sooner).

-Luke
 

phedre

Squire
I like that idea. Maybe make it so its a separate skill, "wear arcane armor," which must be purchased in order to wear it, unless the character has rit ranks.

If your fighter wants to wear 30 points of AA, it'll cost him equal build as a prof (if its kept at 1 build per additional point).
 

Gilwing

Baron
Alliance Logistics
Toddo said:
I'm niether for or against AA, but I would like to see physical armor have a benefit over AA besides a potential extra 10 points. Not sure what form this would take but I think a non-magical protection aura effect equal to the lowest armor rating area on your body would make walking around in full plate a tactical choice. (by and large in a light touch boffer combat game the loss of mobility full heavy armor inflicts on you isn't worth a few extra points of armor, at least in my experience)

The benefit of real armor is that any one that is willing to put in the OOG effort can get it. You can even start with it at level 1.
AA is an IG thing, obtained IG (most of the time, gobbied AA is beneficial to the chapter as they need to spend a good amount of gobbies). oh its also "Magical" and any thing magical is better then plane old...normal.
 

Talen

Adept
evi1r0n said:
So there are a few folks with the ARCANE ARMOR IS BAD mentality. Why is this a thing? I am really curious why people dislike it so much. In my personal experience it has allowed me to costume myself in the way I want and look really good without having to break the bank on impressive armor for a very large dude.

The arguments I have heard against arcane armor is that physical armor is better for the game because it increases costuming quality, though I would argue the opposite. I have seen the rare suit of gorgeous armor that makes me drool a little but for the most part it's homemade semi-anachronistic suits made specifically to maximize points. The people who have arcanes are folks who have been playing for a while and usually have really solid costuming. It's just way easier and cheaper to make someone look really cool and in-genre with fabric than it is with armor. Anything that makes the game more accessible, financially, is a good thing IMO but I am not a high roller by any stretch of the imagination.

Now I am not coming out against physical armor. I think it's great and I salute those who wear platemail but I really dig the way I play the game, too.
So, why are we applauding something that gives costume effectively the same armor rating as strapping on plate?

I'm not. You want to be the guy with armor points, you shouldn't be able to just burn a few rather common components and *bang*, suddenly you have a nice pile of armor points for no weight and no additional costuming. Wear good costuming because costuming is good, don't try and equate it with "I should be able to do like the guy wearing a 14ga breastplate because magic".

Frankly, I think Arcane Armor should have a maximum- and that maximum should be "however much armor you're actually wearing", up to a combined maximum of 30. So AA on no-armor costume would be worth 3-4 points at most, while a 15-point set of physical armor would give you 15 points of AA to go with it- and the ritual is cast on the armor itself.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Either that or AA is combinable with physical armor... and can over-cap. I'd like to see AA be an armor boost similar to an ongoing Shield spell that can be cast in 5/10/15 point flavor. Combine this with the High Magic armor and you can reach the 30 point limit we hit now. Combine it with a 20 point suit of leather and you've got the equivalent of plate. Put it on a full plate fighter and you can get to 55... if you've got the Wear Extra Armor skill high enough to wear that much. I'd have it so that you still can't have more armor than you can wear per class/Wear Extra Armor skill regardless of whether its Arcane, Celestial, or Physical. Then all those forms of armor are still very valuable, and none are comparatively de-valued because none are a direct replacement for the other.
 

stonegolem

Scholar
Marshal
I do not understand this argument.

Suggesting that real armor should be better than Arcane Armor simply because it is real armor and comes with physical restrictions is the equivalent of suggesting that a sword blow should deal more damage than a Dragon's Breath because you actually have to swing a boffer at someone to hit them.

Is it truly the case that purchasing and wearing armor is so onerously restrictive and undesirable that the vast majority of players would rather wear Arcane Armor or nothing? Is that the real issue here? If that's the case, our efforts should be focused on increasing the desirability of physical armor, not punishing the users of AA.

Or is this a case of people finding it somehow distasteful that someone else's IG effort outweighs their OOG effort? Is it a serious detriment to your game when you see someone not wearing an actual suit of plate mail while absorbing those boffer blows and packets of birdseed?
 

ASFDan

Scholar
stonegolem said:
Is it truly the case that purchasing and wearing armor is so onerously restrictive and undersirable that the vast majority of players would rather wear Arcane Armor or nothing? Is that the real issue here?
More often than some people tend to think. I have an nontrivial number of players for whom acquiring physical armor above a certain threshold under the current system represents a logistical barrier in one form or another (usually some combination of physical condition, money, time, and/or skill). These players do their best with what they can, but often suffer a penalty in the form of reduced armor (and thus, survivability) compared to players not laboring under these restrictions until such a time as they can get their hands on an AA suit. It's a reasonable workaround, but in a game where we emphasize transcendence of reality (be all you can't be, etc) it seems antithetical to deliberately impose reality-based restrictions on such a crucial part of the system. We should be working to remove these sorts of roadblocks where reasonable, not clinging to them.

If that's the case, our efforts should be focused on increasing the desirability of physical armor, not punishing the users of AA.
Desirability *and* availability. Not everyone possessing/seeking AA *chooses* not to wear physical armor.

Or is this a case of people finding it somehow distasteful that someone else's IG effort outweighs their OOG effort? Is it a serious detriment to your game when you see someone not wearing an actual suit of plate mail while absorbing those boffer blows and packets of birdseed?
That is also the case for some people, unfortunately.
 
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