The people vs. arcane armor

Davion

Scholar
ASFDan said:
Lurin said:
that white armor for example is far too 'fantasy' in my mind
Given the context that we're running a high fantasy LARP, this seems somewhat absurd. :huh:
Don't come to SoMN, then. :(
 

Davion

Scholar
It's absurd that our rules system for armor is written to "promote authenticity" by someone who thinks they're a historian because they read D&D books. Things that are ridiculous in our rules from a authenticity standpoint
1) Inclusion of studded leather as actual armor (lol, studs do what exactly when hit by a warhammer or a sword?) This armor was a misconception by the authors of D&D
2) Inclusion of soft leather armor at all. (Leather hardly does anything from a sword or warhammer unless it is BOILED. Trust me, you can cut it with ordinary kitchen scissors)
3) Allowing of maximum diameter chain mail (I can see your skin...)
4) Allowing of steel

and from a practical larp standpoint

1) THREE POINT ARMOR IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FEEL HITS IN

This stuff was made to stop swords, lances and warhammers. How do you expect a foam weapon, engineered to minimally hurt a player when thrust directly into their eye, to register hits on the player inside of this stuff?

The system is literally counterproductive to EITHER goal.
 

Wraith

Newbie
Davion said:
It's absurd that our rules system for armor is written to "promote authenticity" by someone who thinks they're a historian because they read D&D books. Things that are ridiculous in our rules from a authenticity standpoint
1) Inclusion of studded leather as actual armor (lol, studs do what exactly when hit by a warhammer or a sword?) This armor was a misconception by the authors of D&D
2) Inclusion of soft leather armor at all. (Leather hardly does anything from a sword or warhammer unless it is BOILED. Trust me, you can cut it with ordinary kitchen scissors)
3) Allowing of maximum diameter chain mail (I can see your skin...)
4) Allowing of steel

and from a practical larp standpoint

1) THREE POINT ARMOR IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FEEL HITS IN

This stuff was made to stop swords, lances and warhammers. How do you expect a foam weapon, engineered to minimally hurt a player when thrust directly into their eye, to register hits on the player inside of this stuff?

The system is literally counterproductive to EITHER goal.
'Feeling' hits is not in any way necessary in our system. We're playing a touch game, not a 'sufficient force' game, and combat should never be operating at a speed that requires being hit hard to tell you you've been hit.

Maybe you've never worn plate, I'm not going to make that assumption, but when someone hits you with a boffer it is pretty darn obvious that you've been hit from the noise alone, as well as the other person screaming numbers at you.


:cold: Edited to remove disrepsect -Paladin of Ice :cold:
 

MKing

Scout
Wraith said:
Davion said:
It's absurd that our rules system for armor is written to "promote authenticity" by someone who thinks they're a historian because they read D&D books. Things that are ridiculous in our rules from a authenticity standpoint
1) Inclusion of studded leather as actual armor (lol, studs do what exactly when hit by a warhammer or a sword?) This armor was a misconception by the authors of D&D
2) Inclusion of soft leather armor at all. (Leather hardly does anything from a sword or warhammer unless it is BOILED. Trust me, you can cut it with ordinary kitchen scissors)
3) Allowing of maximum diameter chain mail (I can see your skin...)
4) Allowing of steel

and from a practical larp standpoint

1) THREE POINT ARMOR IS IMPOSSIBLE TO FEEL HITS IN

This stuff was made to stop swords, lances and warhammers. How do you expect a foam weapon, engineered to minimally hurt a player when thrust directly into their eye, to register hits on the player inside of this stuff?

The system is literally counterproductive to EITHER goal.
'Feeling' hits is not in any way necessary in our system. We're playing a touch game, not a 'sufficient force' game, and combat should never be operating at a speed that requires being hit hard to tell you you've been hit.

Maybe you've never worn plate, I'm not going to make that assumption, but when someone hits you with a boffer it is pretty darn obvious that you've been hit from the noise alone, as well as the other person screaming numbers at you.
Sound during mass combat....not so easy, I've missed hits due to a heavy set of chain due to a) not feeling the hit, cause its a TOUCHED base hit and b) was during a mass combat where pcs and npcs were all mixed together..

as to studded leather armor and soft leather armor were used in times passed, most of the time it was Archers. It was used by main line fighters as well....

but here is the main fact...THIS IS NOT REAL COMBAT!!! there for it's not about what the armor "really" does...its a fantasy game...

:cold:Edited to removed disrespect from quoted text -Paladin of Ice :cold:
 

Paladin of Ice

Artisan
Moderator
Hi everybody! This thread is getting a little heated and people need to cool off.

I'm freezing it for a minimum of 24 hours.

Go enjoy Memorial Day and come back tomorrow to see if it's back.

Thank you for your cooperation,

Paladin of Ice
 

Paladin of Ice

Artisan
Moderator
Ok, here's the deal. This thread is on thin ice.

The main things to remember: Be respectful toward each other, be respectful toward the game, and the writers of the game. Things are usually put some way because somebody wanted it that way at some point in time. If you agree/disagree with that, be civil about it. It's not disagreement which is frowned upon by moderators, it's insensitively worded or rude comments.

Stay cool everyone.

-Ice :cold:
 

SkollWolfrun

Squire
Oregon Staff
Wraith said:
'Feeling' hits is not in any way necessary in our system. We're playing a touch game, not a 'sufficient force' game, and combat should never be operating at a speed that requires being hit hard to tell you you've been hit.

Maybe you've never worn plate, I'm not going to make that assumption, but when someone hits you with a boffer it is pretty darn obvious that you've been hit from the noise alone, as well as the other person screaming numbers at you.


:cold: Edited to remove disrepsect -Paladin of Ice :cold:
If you have 3-4 people in plate in the same area, then not being able to feel the hit does become an issue because there is a lot of clanking, and calls, and other noise rolling around at the same time. And more than not, people do not feel that packet hitting with a Gift (whether it was a Death or Life).

If you want to go to a stacked system, I can get behind it but I think it would also have to entail an overhaul of the entire combat system. This would include reducing all of the increases per skill, spells, and armor (magical, regular, and combined).
If that is not addressed, then you are just increasing the usefulness of the takeout spells along with forcing Plot teams to put out bigger number BBG (which does nothing but hurt the low to mid level player) with even more defensive skills. Pumping up numbers just makes other issues that much larger.
 

Undrask

Scholar
Alright, here's something I said in a coversation earlier:

All the policies and rules that effect the game should A: not unnecessarily punish players OOG for IG purposes, and B: make the game MORE enjoyable rather than LESS.

So the question that we are forced to ask about armor is whether or not requiring real armor punishes people OOG?: Yes, it does. In real world money (which could be spent on costuming of equal APPEARANCE but less cost, so no loss and possible gain of costuming quality), in additional discomfort and injury/age restriction (I don't mean to be insensitive, but if you're older, armor hurts more. Feel free to disagree with that assumption!) and it restricts out ability to fight (this would be a "trade-off" if it wasn't for the option of AA). All of these factors lead to a rule that restricts CHARACTERS from having an item because the PLAYER cannot use it. It is my opinion that this diminishes not only the quality of game play, but the authenticity of the IG world.

And, Does the inclusion of this rule add to the game?: I would argue no. Some people get a lot of joy out of the authenticity of real people wearing real armor, but I think that kind of mentality is better saved for re-creation organizations like the SCA. I really do enjoy seeing a fantastic set of real plate armor worn by somebody who is really using it and really swinging a chunk of ratan hard enough to bust through it if it was a sword. This is not that kind of organization in my opinion. We use ultra-light weapons made of foam and use touches to deliver blows. That kind of play shouldn't require a disproportionate scaling for the armor. Fake weapons should = fake armor or it becomes an unequal trade-off. These kinds of strange and seemingly esoteric additions to the rules make the groundwork for the game inconsistent in my opinion, and diminish the way the game runs.

As a final note, I think that much of the concerns of what material your LARP armor is made of can be shunted off to an IG resolution. If your character is going to wear plate armor, they have to purchase plate armor tags and have a phys rep that adequately resembles plate armor. There will be better and worse costuming, just as for everything else.
 

Undrask

Scholar
PS: I feel like AA was introduced to BE a workaround for having a lack of real armor. If people can't get real armor, they should still be able to play and have armor scale appropriate to their level, and I totally agree. However, there are other workaround for this which I feel would lead to a much higher quality of costume and quality of play in my opinion.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
Over the many iterations of this topic that I've read, going back probably at least ten years, the one thing that I consistently see people making as a point for how the armor rules 'punish' players is that it costs too much.

Now maybe my definition of the phrase "costs too much" is way different than that of everyone who uses it as a point against the armor rules, but I figured I'd take some time and actually look at the numbers.

On average across the Alliance (minus Oregon, I could not find their event costs on the website. JP, feel free to jump in with the cost and I'll update my number.) an event costs $53.54. This does not include any additional costs for meals (where that was an option) and does include any applicable discount for pre-registration. So, it is an average of the cheapest cost to PC an event.

For less than the cost of three events, you can build a suit of armor that will get you, at a minimum (not including bonuses), 30 points of armor.

I can't see how someone who is shelling out that kind of money for an event (not including meals or even gas to get to the event) can really be of the opinion that a 30 point suit "costs too much" at $150.00

For your convenience:
TL;DR:
Average cost of event ~$50
30 pt armor ~$150
Too expensive how?
 

ASFDan

Scholar
my definition of the phrase "costs too much" is way different
Indeed.

TL;DR:
Average cost of event ~$50
30 pt armor ~$150
Too expensive how?
For many players, the cost of attending is already a significant burden, and finding an extra three events' worth of cash is not something trivial. Now you might be fine with setting a bar on how much money someone has to have before they're allowed to play with everyone else, but those of us who want our games to be successful need to find ways to remove entry barriers, not add additional ones.
 

Avaran

Baron
tieran said:
On average across the Alliance (minus Oregon, I could not find their event costs on the website. JP, feel free to jump in with the cost and I'll update my number.) an event costs $53.54.
Our event feeds for PCs:
$65.00 at the door, $50.00 if you pre-reg.

I broke down the cost of a 30pt AA in OR earlier in the thread.
 

Thorador

Rogue
Cause 150 dollars on top of fees for the game, on top of other expenses, as well as the other reasons people don't wear armor - it is heavy, uncomfortable, hurts, makes you shittier at dodging(which is more important than armor points in our system), makes the cost of armor not equal to the rewards it gives, vs. playing the game which gives the rewards of well..playing the game.
Cost vs benefit. Very little in our system gives bonuses for wearing real armor, actually the only thing in our system is 20 ranks of blacksmithing, which is such a huge build investment for not the hugest of bonuses. I know, I am a 20th rank blacksmith.
I also find it odd that folks don't understand that 50 dollars every month or two is easier for people on the lower income bracket to do then a larger purchase of 150 dollars or more.
Also please site your source on the $150 dollar 30 point armor.
I once purchased 100 dollar iron armor that fell apart in a year, as a note.
 

Davion

Scholar
Avaran said:
I broke down the cost of a 30pt AA in OR earlier in the thread.
I don't know how it works out there, but in the midwest, people can donate their time to get an Arcane Armor. Chicago, for example, if you stayed and cleaned up at the event and worked the whole clean up time until everyone leaves, you can get a 1 year 30pt Arcane armor in about 4 events - so cleaning is pretty much all you have to do. This is done both because of customer service and to keep the game running smoothly.

tieran said:
Over the many iterations of this topic that I've read, going back probably at least ten years, the one thing that I consistently see people making as a point for how the armor rules 'punish' players is that it costs too much.
That's not really the point people are making in this thread. The point is you can get cooler armor for cheaper by loosening restrictions AND/OR promote player health and allow health considerations. I've always been very proud that our game lets you "Be all that you can't be" including those who are in poor health. My pride started when I watched Monster Camp and the gal in the wheelchair said she came to the games because people appreciated her there. Whenever people dis our fighting style, I tell them we are the most accessible game. At SoMN and Chicago we've had...

A shooting victim from the Fort Hood Rampage (I actually remember she had to go home because the armor she was wearing was irritating her wound)
A kid who had to use a walker to move around
A teen who struggled with autism
Several mobility impaired people
At least 3 people with pins in their ankles (including Chokonu who's already commented in this thread)

Likewise, there have been several players who've thrown out their backs from the armor at our games. Even my washer mail has given me some aches and pains.
 

Talen

Adept
Undrask said:
PS: I feel like AA was introduced to BE a workaround for having a lack of real armor. If people can't get real armor, they should still be able to play and have armor scale appropriate to their level, and I totally agree. However, there are other workaround for this which I feel would lead to a much higher quality of costume and quality of play in my opinion.
Point is, it's not a workaround.

AA is better than real armor. Period. Zero restrictions for maximum protection in a system where people casually ritual it up like they were pouring a bowl of cereal, and/or gobbie it out.

That's not a workaround, even if it was intended to be. It's a pure advantage. Real armor is a tradeoff- extra "health" in exchange for being slowed down (a drawback in a game where two hits from a packet often disable the target) and physically drained (because significant armor is oft bulky, heavy, or both at once)- which again, slows you down further. As for not being able to get "real armor"?

Fine. Get looks-like armor instead. Paint up a set of IDV plastic armor from Dark Victory instead of wearing metal. Get sharkmail instead of traditional mail (hint: many meat processing places use the stuff and -throw out- enough older bits of protective gear to make your average LARPer cry). Make the effort. A standard Dark Victory set of chest armor is $70. That's a weekend at HQ if you forgot to pre-reg. Fancy it up a bit with paint or the occasional bit of metal armor- bracers, for example. I ended up with chainmail gloves for zero simply scrounging from a local deli who were throwing out an old pair of protective gloves.

In a sense, it's the same excuses I see with people who come in bad costume. "I can't find costume that fits me." "I can't afford good costume". The answer is "you haven't been asking the right people" or "if you can afford an event, you can afford armor/costume/kit in general, you'd just rather play with the minimums rather than improve what you've got."

That's not elitist or exclusionary. That's just saying "Hey, we can do better- here's how, you want to make the game look better?" Nobody wants to go back to tabard-jeans-random thirftstore belt, right? :) .

After 20+ years of Alliance and it's ancestors, we should be able to look better and know how to do it even on a budget or for the odd-sized amidst us. Including armor.
 

Talen

Adept
Davion said:
That's not really the point people are making in this thread. The point is you can get cooler armor for cheaper by loosening restrictions AND/OR promote player health and allow health considerations. I've always been very proud that our game lets you "Be all that you can't be" including those who are in poor health. My pride started when I watched Monster Camp and the gal in the wheelchair said she came to the games because people appreciated her there. Whenever people dis our fighting style, I tell them we are the most accessible game. At SoMN and Chicago we've had...

A shooting victim from the Fort Hood Rampage (I actually remember she had to go home because the armor she was wearing was irritating her wound)
A kid who had to use a walker to move around
A teen who struggled with autism
Several mobility impaired people
At least 3 people with pins in their ankles (including Chokonu who's already commented in this thread)

Likewise, there have been several players who've thrown out their backs from the armor at our games. Even my washer mail has given me some aches and pains.
And if we''re worried about physreps causing health issues, then you have to draw a line somewhere. And by that, I mean armor standards should be based on other combat standards. What's a reasonable amount of weight for someone we feel is combat-able to wear? That's where a maximum-point set of real armor should be getting 30 points of protection, with heavier armor pieces gaining the ability to do so with fewer pieces.

Is a simple 16ga metal breast-and-back about the weight we'd figure is what folks can use? As it is, I'd say real armor is -vastly- under-performing considering based on the standards we have now, considering who we want to be out there playing at "full power" as warrior types. If AA is our solution now, then consider the equivalent non-magical (that is, a simply good costume) is worth a -tenth- of a 30 point AA.
 

Undrask

Scholar
Talen said:
Undrask said:
PS: I feel like AA was introduced to BE a workaround for having a lack of real armor. If people can't get real armor, they should still be able to play and have armor scale appropriate to their level, and I totally agree. However, there are other workaround for this which I feel would lead to a much higher quality of costume and quality of play in my opinion.
Point is, it's not a workaround.

AA is better than real armor. Period. Zero restrictions for maximum protection in a system where people casually ritual it up like they were pouring a bowl of cereal, and/or gobbie it out.

That's not a workaround, even if it was intended to be. It's a pure advantage. Real armor is a tradeoff- extra "health" in exchange for being slowed down (a drawback in a game where two hits from a packet often disable the target) and physically drained (because significant armor is oft bulky, heavy, or both at once)- which again, slows you down further. As for not being able to get "real armor"?

Fine. Get looks-like armor instead. Paint up a set of IDV plastic armor from Dark Victory instead of wearing metal. Get sharkmail instead of traditional mail (hint: many meat processing places use the stuff and -throw out- enough older bits of protective gear to make your average LARPer cry). Make the effort. A standard Dark Victory set of chest armor is $70. That's a weekend at HQ if you forgot to pre-reg. Fancy it up a bit with paint or the occasional bit of metal armor- bracers, for example. I ended up with chainmail gloves for zero simply scrounging from a local deli who were throwing out an old pair of protective gloves.

In a sense, it's the same excuses I see with people who come in bad costume. "I can't find costume that fits me." "I can't afford good costume". The answer is "you haven't been asking the right people" or "if you can afford an event, you can afford armor/costume/kit in general, you'd just rather play with the minimums rather than improve what you've got."

That's not elitist or exclusionary. That's just saying "Hey, we can do better- here's how, you want to make the game look better?" Nobody wants to go back to tabard-jeans-random thirftstore belt, right? :) .

After 20+ years of Alliance and it's ancestors, we should be able to look better and know how to do it even on a budget or for the odd-sized amidst us. Including armor.
See this as for me agreeing.

Undrask said:
Alright, here's something I said in a coversation earlier:

All the policies and rules that effect the game should A: not unnecessarily punish players OOG for IG purposes, and B: make the game MORE enjoyable rather than LESS.

So the question that we are forced to ask about armor is whether or not requiring real armor punishes people OOG?: Yes, it does. In real world money (which could be spent on costuming of equal APPEARANCE but less cost, so no loss and possible gain of costuming quality), in additional discomfort and injury/age restriction (I don't mean to be insensitive, but if you're older, armor hurts more. Feel free to disagree with that assumption!) and it restricts out ability to fight (this would be a "trade-off" if it wasn't for the option of AA). All of these factors lead to a rule that restricts CHARACTERS from having an item because the PLAYER cannot use it. It is my opinion that this diminishes not only the quality of game play, but the authenticity of the IG world.

And, Does the inclusion of this rule add to the game?: I would argue no. Some people get a lot of joy out of the authenticity of real people wearing real armor, but I think that kind of mentality is better saved for re-creation organizations like the SCA. I really do enjoy seeing a fantastic set of real plate armor worn by somebody who is really using it and really swinging a chunk of ratan hard enough to bust through it if it was a sword. This is not that kind of organization in my opinion. We use ultra-light weapons made of foam and use touches to deliver blows. That kind of play shouldn't require a disproportionate scaling for the armor. Fake weapons should = fake armor or it becomes an unequal trade-off. These kinds of strange and seemingly esoteric additions to the rules make the groundwork for the game inconsistent in my opinion, and diminish the way the game runs.

As a final note, I think that much of the concerns of what material your LARP armor is made of can be shunted off to an IG resolution. If your character is going to wear plate armor, they have to purchase plate armor tags and have a phys rep that adequately resembles plate armor. There will be better and worse costuming, just as for everything else.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
Thorador said:
Cause 150 dollars on top of fees for the game, on top of other expenses, as well as the other reasons people don't wear armor - it is heavy, uncomfortable, hurts, makes you shittier at dodging(which is more important than armor points in our system), makes the cost of armor not equal to the rewards it gives, vs. playing the game which gives the rewards of well..playing the game.
If you NPCs for three events, you are not paying the event costs, and are receiving a reward for that, and saving the money for your armor.


Thorador said:
Cost vs benefit. Very little in our system gives bonuses for wearing real armor, actually the only thing in our system is 20 ranks of blacksmithing, which is such a huge build investment for not the hugest of bonuses. I know, I am a 20th rank blacksmith.
I also find it odd that folks don't understand that 50 dollars every month or two is easier for people on the lower income bracket to do then a larger purchase of 150 dollars or more.
Also please site your source on the $150 dollar 30 point armor.
I once purchased 100 dollar iron armor that fell apart in a year, as a note.
I totally understand that making 3 $50 purchases spread over 6 months is easier than a purchase of $150 at one time, but that is what budgeting is for.

$150 armor. Ringlord.com galvanized steel 14 gauge 5/8" premade jump rings 30 lbs = about $140 plus pliers plus time = 3pt material on head, upper arms, upper legs, belly, upper chest and back = 30 points of armor plus some leftover rings.

My suit cost me a bit less than that, but it was 10-12 years ago and I made it from wire.

Galvanized steel would eliminate the rust issue for the most part, if you wanted to eliminate it completely go stainless steel, but that is more expensive.

Admittedly, I passed mine on once I got arcane, and I'm not debating the other issues associated with armor, but I think arguing that it costs too much is silly.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
ASFDan said:
my definition of the phrase "costs too much" is way different
Indeed.

TL;DR:
Average cost of event ~$50
30 pt armor ~$150
Too expensive how?
For many players, the cost of attending is already a significant burden, and finding an extra three events' worth of cash is not something trivial. Now you might be fine with setting a bar on how much money someone has to have before they're allowed to play with everyone else, but those of us who want our games to be successful need to find ways to remove entry barriers, not add additional ones.
And if these people who want armor NPCed for three events you benefit by getting more NPCs (unless you have too many now) and they get armor at the end of it.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
Davion said:
Avaran said:
I broke down the cost of a 30pt AA in OR earlier in the thread.
I don't know how it works out there, but in the midwest, people can donate their time to get an Arcane Armor. Chicago, for example, if you stayed and cleaned up at the event and worked the whole clean up time until everyone leaves, you can get a 1 year 30pt Arcane armor in about 4 events - so cleaning is pretty much all you have to do. This is done both because of customer service and to keep the game running smoothly.

tieran said:
Over the many iterations of this topic that I've read, going back probably at least ten years, the one thing that I consistently see people making as a point for how the armor rules 'punish' players is that it costs too much.
That's not really the point people are making in this thread. The point is you can get cooler armor for cheaper by loosening restrictions AND/OR promote player health and allow health considerations. I've always been very proud that our game lets you "Be all that you can't be" including those who are in poor health. My pride started when I watched Monster Camp and the gal in the wheelchair said she came to the games because people appreciated her there. Whenever people dis our fighting style, I tell them we are the most accessible game. At SoMN and Chicago we've had...

A shooting victim from the Fort Hood Rampage (I actually remember she had to go home because the armor she was wearing was irritating her wound)
A kid who had to use a walker to move around
A teen who struggled with autism
Several mobility impaired people
At least 3 people with pins in their ankles (including Chokonu who's already commented in this thread)

Likewise, there have been several players who've thrown out their backs from the armor at our games. Even my washer mail has given me some aches and pains.
And I appreciate all that. I do. The only issue I was addressing was that of cost.
 
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