The people vs. arcane armor

[stonegolem]

I am one of the players for whom physical armor is difficult to obtain. I'm short on armorbuilding skill, and being a Fellow Of Impressive Gravity it is difficult to find ready-made pieces of armor without spending hundreds I don't have. I count myself extremely fortunate to run with a crew who does have an AA they can loan me, because otherwise I absolutely would be one of those players who simply prays that leather boots and mastercraft bonus will last me long enough to refresh Magic Armor.

If my situation is, as Dan suggests, a widespread phenomenon, then absolutely we need to find ways to enourage physical armor use and make it easier to obtain OOG.

I absolutely do not think that we should reduce the effectiveness of Arcane Armor instead of improving physical armor.

 

[SkollWolfrun]

Then number bloat becomes more of a thing if we increase base armor that much.

/sarcasm on
Yeah, I guess it 'sucks' that those nasty NPCs can roll around for a year or two, saving up gobbies so they can come into game with AA. They did 'nothing' to warrant that special treatment.
/sarcasm off

Maybe people need to be happy with what they have and if they want AA, work towards it.

 

[ASFDan]

Then number bloat becomes more of a thing if we increase base armor that much.

/sarcasm on
Yeah, I guess it 'sucks' that those nasty NPCs can roll around for a year or two, saving up gobbies so they can come into game with AA. They did 'nothing' to warrant that special treatment.
/sarcasm off

Maybe people need to be happy with what they have and if they want AA, work towards it.

I don't understand who you're addressing or why such hostility. It's not really warranted here.

 

[MaxIrons]

Then number bloat becomes more of a thing if we increase base armor that much.

Would be even worse.

As is, It's rare to see someone come into game without at least a 5 point suit of armor. 10 points even is pretty doable on the cheap for those of us with a pony keg instead of a 6-pack. (Bracers, boots/greaves and that lovely in-genre/mastercraft). So a 15 point AA on top of that 10 point physical armor is doable. Would give you a 25 point set of armor... the downside would be that you'd need a 60 second smithing and a 60 point concentration (both doable at the same time with a partner doing the smithing) to get back to full.

With further thinking on it, I'd say that Celestial Armor would "count as" physical armor. Physical suit or CA, whichever is better. AA on top of that.

As for the number bloat, I don't see too much a problem if someone wants to pay at least 20 build, wear heavy restrictive armor, and shell out for the top of the line AA to reach that point. At that point they're giving up offensive ability (1 1/3 weapon prof as a fighter) to have defensive. The worst possible offender would be a celestial templar who could spend 3 formal points a day for 15 pt. CA and then add a 15 pt. AA on top to run around with a 30 point suit while "nude" and not having to spend build. Of course said celestial templar can do so now without spending the formal in their 30 point top line AA....

 

[ASFDan]

Then number bloat becomes more of a thing if we increase base armor that much.

This particular problem comes from treating armor as a type of secondary hit points. In this case there's no reasonable path to reducing the armor's value without either increasing damage or bypassing the armor completely; both affect armor indirectly, while affecting scaling (or bloat) directly and disparately.

Imagine instead a system where armor reduces damage from every hit (to some logical minimum). Now you can easily affect the armor's damage reduction capability directly without having to resort to either of the above methods, making your scaling in turn far more flexible and robust.

 

[stonegolem]

Personally, I would love to see a system like this:

In Period: 1 point per location.
Master-crafted: 1 additional point per location, and requires some special level of Blacksmithing. Remember that conversation we had about wanting to beef up blacksmithing?
"Soft" armor materials (flexible leather, flexible plastic, stiff cloth, padded cloth): 1 additional point per location.
"Hard" armor materials (wood, bone, metal, rigid plastic, rigid leather): 2 additional points per location.

Keep the current system of doubling head, chest, stomach and back.

Under those rules, that completely sweet suit of white leather, which looks like a real Melon Farmer to run around and fight in, would score 36 points for being rigid leather, entirely in period, and of clearly exceptional quality. If the armor tag was "Mastercrafted Armor," for... oh, I dunno, 400 extra production points? That sweet suit of leather would be worth a whopping 48 points, and represent both a significant OOG and IG investment for the serious player who is concerned with the verisimilitude of his play as well as his desire to maintain a maximum level of physical protection - at the cost of adding a whole potential 8 extra points to our system.

Under the same system, a player is not punished for a very cool and in-period looking suit of plastic "plate mail" - a whole suit of rigid PVC would be 36 points. The same suit that is obviously rinky-dink looking would only be worth 24.

Against that system, 30 points of Arcane Armor in exchange for not having to wear that bulky suit seems entirely equitable.

 

[Wraith]

I honestly think that people who don't understand why Arcane is absurdly more powerful than physical armor simply need to try fighting a full event in 30+ points of steel.

I'm not terribly fast, but I gaurantee I can dodge more damage than the armor absorbs when I'm not burdened with 40lbs of steel plates, restrictive and hot canvas, and leather strapping. In a speed based combat system where weapons have gotten exponentially lighter and combat distinctly faster over the last decade, it is utterly unsurprising that arcane has proliferated.

Even less surprising when you consider that the goblin stamp cost for a 30 point suit of arcane requires a lower cash layout than building anything of similar points in real armor.

 

[Avaran]

Even less surprising when you consider that the goblin stamp cost for a 30 point suit of arcane requires a lower cash layout than building anything of similar points in real armor.

Are you suggesting the goblin stamp cost should be increased to match the cost of actual armor?

 

[Wraith]

Even less surprising when you consider that the goblin stamp cost for a 30 point suit of arcane requires a lower cash layout than building anything of similar points in real armor.

Are you suggesting the goblin stamp cost should be increased to match the cost of actual armor?

Depends on the goals of the game. If the goal is to have more players wearing armor reps? Then absolutely AA's goblin stamp and component costs need to be increased to offset the material advantages it gives over physical armor.

If the goal is to draw more cash/goods/npc time donated to the games in exchange for outright purchasing in-game advantage? We're right on track.

 

[MaxIrons]

Even less surprising when you consider that the goblin stamp cost for a 30 point suit of arcane requires a lower cash layout than building anything of similar points in real armor.

Are you suggesting the goblin stamp cost should be increased to match the cost of actual armor?

I didn't think about this angle, but if the GS point cost for AA is less than the GS production point cost for an equivalent suit of physical armor then something seems very very wrong.

 

[phedre]

No, it's real-money cheaper to donate cash, goods or services to a chapter and gobbie AA than to build or buy an armor rep.

 

[OrcFighterFTW]

I don't know about other chapters, but it's no longer possible to goblin stamp a 30 point arcane suit in SoMN. The highest possible is 25 points for 1,600 goblin stamps plus 4 Magic Item picks at the cost of 200 goblins each, for a total cost of 2,400.

 

[Avaran]

Even less surprising when you consider that the goblin stamp cost for a 30 point suit of arcane requires a lower cash layout than building anything of similar points in real armor.

Are you suggesting the goblin stamp cost should be increased to match the cost of actual armor?

I didn't think about this angle, but if the GS point cost for AA is less than the GS production point cost for an equivalent suit of physical armor then something seems very very wrong.

The cost is going to differ from chapter to chapter. Some chapters give more goblin stamps / dollar( or time) than others.

For reference, we give 5 goblin stamps per dollar spent/donated in OR; you can gobby a 30pt AA (good for a year) for 1250 gobbies ($250). If you put a gobbied preserve to make it last 5 years and it only extended 1-4 rituals (250 gobbies) it would add another $50, so you're looking at $300 in donations/time, etc. to get that 30 pt. suit.

But ya know, who is to say that $300 in time/effort/money/ *enthusiasm/helpful attitude* isn't enough? Who is to say it's too much? Who sets that standard? Right now, it's the individual chapters. I don't see anything wrong with that.

I will say that I like the idea of AA adding to the armor that you're wearing up to 30 points (having to wear 15pt physical suit to get 15 from AA and total 30), though I'd probably want it to be an option on the scroll, not the only one available game-wide.

*priceless

 

[Inaryn]

Even less surprising when you consider that the goblin stamp cost for a 30 point suit of arcane requires a lower cash layout than building anything of similar points in real armor.

Are you suggesting the goblin stamp cost should be increased to match the cost of actual armor?

Depends on the goals of the game. If the goal is to have more players wearing armor reps? Then absolutely AA's goblin stamp and component costs need to be increased to offset the material advantages it gives over physical armor.

If the goal is to draw more cash/goods/npc time donated to the games in exchange for outright purchasing in-game advantage? We're right on track.

OR...

The rules about what materials are actually acceptable to build your armor out of and the way it's rated could be changed to adapt to the concept of playing a representational game.

 

[stonegolem]

OR...

The rules about what materials are actually acceptable to build your armor out of and the way it's rated could be changed to adapt to the concept of playing a representational game.

I cannot agree more with this. If the goal is to create an immersive fantasy world, it should be acceptable and even appropriate to reward the wearers of armor that is immersive and fantastic. It strikes me as disingenuous that a person should expect "real" levels of protective armor to rate how well it shrugs off the blows of a half-pound stick covered in foam, when that same person could turn around and demand that a person fall down and play dead because they were well and fairly struck with a packet of birdseed whose flight path was preceeded with the sentence "I grant you the gift of death."

I say if it looks good and exciting and adds to the ambience of our game, by all means it should be treated as worthwhile. I'd happily rate that same slick-looking white leather armor seat like plate mail, on the grounds that it's totally wicked. I'd do the same for a well-crafted, metallic-looking suit of PVC plate.

 

[Wraith]

OR...

The rules about what materials are actually acceptable to build your armor out of and the way it's rated could be changed to adapt to the concept of playing a representational game.

I cannot agree more with this. If the goal is to create an immersive fantasy world, it should be acceptable and even appropriate to reward the wearers of armor that is immersive and fantastic. It strikes me as disingenuous that a person should expect "real" levels of protective armor to rate how well it shrugs off the blows of a half-pound stick covered in foam, when that same person could turn around and demand that a person fall down and play dead because they were well and fairly struck with a packet of birdseed whose flight path was preceeded with the sentence "I grant you the gift of death."

I say if it looks good and exciting and adds to the ambience of our game, by all means it should be treated as worthwhile. I'd happily rate that same slick-looking white leather armor seat like plate mail, on the grounds that it's totally wicked. I'd do the same for a well-crafted, metallic-looking suit of PVC plate.

The problem being that it is very hard to build an objective rule on such armors that is universally applicable, and we have generally shied away from leaving rules holes that are fully 'local marshals' discretion'. The materials guidelines are a bit annoying, but they are also objective measures as opposed to the master craft and in period bonuses, which can and do vary wildly from marshal to marshal, and even from game to game in the same chapter with the same armor rep.

I'm not saying this makes it impossible, just very difficult. My own preference would be to first attack the speed of combat issues, which are causing other problems as well, and see if that doesn't remove the overwhelming advantages of not wearing an armor rep.

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

We are not knights. Armor is not a matter of life or death for us as players. It is, however, a matter of health; heavy armor is bad for us, especially if we are not in ideal shape. I have gotten multiple injuries from wearing armor, and in particular I have developed a serious shoulder issue from wearing heavy chain for several years. There is no evidence that realistic armor is actually good for the game, and plenty of evidence that it is not. Armor that looks cool and weighs less than steel is better in every respect except authenticity, which is pursued NOWHERE ELSE in the combat system of the Alliance game.

 

[Talen]

I do not understand this argument.

Suggesting that real armor should be better than Arcane Armor simply because it is real armor and comes with physical restrictions is the equivalent of suggesting that a sword blow should deal more damage than a Dragon's Breath because you actually have to swing a boffer at someone to hit them.

Is it truly the case that purchasing and wearing armor is so onerously restrictive and undesirable that the vast majority of players would rather wear Arcane Armor or nothing? Is that the real issue here? If that's the case, our efforts should be focused on increasing the desirability of physical armor, not punishing the users of AA.

Or is this a case of people finding it somehow distasteful that someone else's IG effort outweighs their OOG effort? Is it a serious detriment to your game when you see someone not wearing an actual suit of plate mail while absorbing those boffer blows and packets of birdseed?

Nope. It's more that as it stands, the game world actually renders the use of armor a detriment, rather than a blessing. And yes, but then I'd rather see people swinging latex vs. ultralight wand-clubs too, but my beef with AA is that it neatly replaces real armor in it's entire range of benefits, does it better, and is very readily available thanks to a rule system supersaturated with the materials to do so. A sword hit dealing less damage than a Dragon's Breath, the DB has limited uses. AA vs. real armor, both provide equivalent protection AND the AA also allows for full freedom of movement and no physical drain whatsoever.

Why -would- someone wear armor when you can have an invisible force field that does the same thing, only far better- assuming the force field is easy to get your hands on?

 

[Talen]

We are not knights. Armor is not a matter of life or death for us as players. It is, however, a matter of health; heavy armor is bad for us, especially if we are not in ideal shape. I have gotten multiple injuries from wearing armor, and in particular I have developed a serious shoulder issue from wearing heavy chain for several years. There is no evidence that realistic armor is actually good for the game, and plenty of evidence that it is not. Armor that looks cool and weighs less than steel is better in every respect except authenticity, which is pursued NOWHERE ELSE in the combat system of the Alliance game.

This. If health is an issue, then a proper looking 19-20ga metal or even stuff like Wonderflex armor should be more promoted than "Let's make a common ritual that puts hardened warrior types best in ordinary clothing."

AP maximums should be doable reasonably in lightweight plate, while 14-16ga armor should be able to do it with LESS than a full suit by comparison. Would you rather see this (namely, the guy on the left):

or this?

Incidental note: 19-20ga LARP-weight armor is a muckin' lot cheaper (and mass produced, even in large sizes) to get than the SCA-safe thick armor. It is, after all -costume-.

Ditto the wonderflex stuff. Lookie here, cheap AND good looking AND homemade.

 

[beboped]

I'm all for moving to a more representational system of armor, but personally I really don't like the Wonderflex armor, it just doesn't look like real armor to me, it looks like cheap plastic. This is particularly apparent in the bottom picture above. I recognize that it isn't, but that's the way it looks to me. Consistency with the rest of the combat system is good; inconsistency with the costuming guidelines is not. Significant plastic pieces of costuming is one of the few things that will instantly earn a 0 master craft from me, unless I actually cannot tell the difference between the plastic and whatever material it is supposed to be representing.