The Undeath

Arkade

Arkade

Scholar
Could somone please tell me as to what spells are not currently "allowed" in most civilized lands? I was simpaly told, "Necromancy". So I disided to allow a friend to keep my ring wile I visit a town, as to not break any of the land's laws. I find out later that granting the gift of death is not considered "Necromancy". I also find out that it is considered "Necromancy" to cause wounds. I'm trying my best to keep the law, but it seams that one can be exicuted for his ignorance. Not to mention, I'v never even heard that "Necromancy" as it seams, hurts our living plane! I am beyond words, I'v never used my abilitys to do wrong and I'm kind of hurt, can somone please help me.
 
In most lands, both chaos and necromancy are inappropriately, some might say, into the same group. Anything which has the word "Chaos" in the incant is considered chaotic or necromantic. Similarly, any magical item which has these spells as the basis are also outlawed (eg. Items which cast 'Cause' spells, rituals which summon undead, etc). As "Death" and "Life" spells are considered 'Gifts', they are not defined as chaotic. I have visited at least one duchy which considers the opposite, any incant invoking 'Earth', illegal, but they are far and few between

As for why, that's a matter for some debate. The simplest, and most accepted explanation: chaos is illegal because it works to break down or unnaturaly accellerate the life-cycle; necromancy is illegal because it uses chaos to mimics life-magics (bestow animation on a corpse, and so on). As well, many Chaoticians and Necromancers are power-hungry, unbalanced, morons who create no ends of trouble for people, governments, and the Balance - whether this is their own personal fault or taint from their magics is unknown. There are also no shortage of Earth mages which attest to the 'pain' Fortannis feels when chaos is imminent, but whether this is truly disruptive is up for debate.

Suffice it to say, ask before casting anything which might be even be closely approximated with chaos or necromancy. As you may find out, there are many fiece individuals who would destroy you even if your actions are through ignorance.


Dramthin Hartsboon
Simple Keeper of the Tainted Grove
 
I have read a good amount of literature on this subject and have a great deal of experience with magic in several lands, and I have found it easiest to use the local convention of any given place while in that place. In most Fortannis lands, presumably most place you will travel, any spell which invokes "Chaos" is considered "Necromancy," regardless of whether it fulfills the proper requirements or not. Magical items, natural powers, and other abilities which mimic such spells are also considered "Necromantic." In nearly all places a traveler may find themselves, any invocation of "Necromancy" carries a harsh consequence, ranging from a stiff fine to Death till Resurrection for the first offense.

There are many other definitions for what constitutes Necromancy, though the previous is the most common. So far as Planar Energies are concerned, one must be careful with terminology. For example, in these lands Earth and Stone are very different elements. This is more confusing when one is faced with distinctions between "Chaos (Necromancy) Creatures," such as undead, and "Chaos (opposing Order) Creatures," such as some elementals. While they both often utilize similar combat methods, the origins of their powers are from very different sources.

Another common definition is that a Necromantic effect is one which could be blocked by a "Cloak Necromancy." This definition also is somewhat lacking. While such a Cloak will block any of the 'popularly defined' "Necromantic effects" from above, it will also block effects created by creatures who draw their power from the Plane of Chaos (opposing Order). Additionally, just a week ago I found myself in combat with Pain Elementals, who used an ability fairly similar to Drain, but was non-Necromantic. It was, however, blocked by a Cloak Necromancy.

Finally, and most universally correct, is "Proper Necromancy." Proper Necromancy refers only to those effects that affect the status of the dead. The Proper Necromancy effects in common usage around Fortannis are Create Undead, Life, and the process of Resurrection. There are several rituals that fulfill these requirements, but they are more rare.

As a rule of thumb, ensure legality of any effect before you use it in a new area, as some places have unusual laws and customs.

~Kerjal
 
I'm not sure if I understand properly, and not to provoke argument I will allow it to rest. I would not want anyone to think me a Necromancer. thank you.
 
What don't you understand? Discussions of these topics are most important, as the Laws surrounding them are unflinching without pity. Seeking clarity on chaos and necromancy speaks to your intelligence, not your nefarity,


Dramthin Hartsboon
Simple Keeper of the Tainted Grove
 
Goodman Arkade,

Seeking information is not apt to have you be seen as nefarious, not by any rational individual at any rate. In fact, in matters of necromancy it is best to be very well informed for once you perform that vile act, accidentally or not, your spirit is forever tainted.

Goodman Dramthin speaks accurately, mostly, on the standard interpretations of anti-necromancy laws. Anything that has the word ‘chaos’ in the incantation is unequivocally necromancy, as are any magic items and nearly all innate powers that mimic such spells. In nearly any civilized, benevolent nation these laws are strictly outlawed with necessarily (and justly) draconian penalties. His reasoning of why it is illegal is likewise adequate, it does indeed interrupt, pervert and twist the natural order of things.

He is, however, mildly inaccurate in referencing the pain that the land feels as a basis for the regulations against these magics. It is not so much pain felt by the Earth as it is actual damage done. Prolonged use of necromancy will pervert, twist, and taint the land just as much as it is itself a twisting and perversion of nature. Many areas (and some entire kingdoms even) suffer severe damage of prolonged use of necromancy.

Some argue a difference between necromancy and other forms of chaos magic. They would argue that while the raising of a dead body into a zombie or skeleton is clearly necromancy, but that a cause wounds or draining spell is not. They are wrong, as even a cause wounds spell perverts the natural cycle and damages the earth. Some nations make this distinction, and they are robbing their future generations (if not themselves if they are a long lived race) of a land that will continue to provide nourishment for and support them.

In a broader scale, many forms of magic or specific spells that are not necromantic tend to be outlawed in various lands (some locations disallow celestial magic, I suspect many realms of Mystic Wood Elves prohibit command magics, etc…) and it is often best to inquire about local ordinances if you are in a strange land.

In closing I can direct you to a couple of excellent treatises on necromancy, specifically “On the Healer” by Dame Natasha Roskya (sp?) if you are able to access the Traveler’s Guide to Tar N’Varia, and “Eyes Wide Open” by Lord Kuwo Mushtee. Many other excellent treatises on the subject exist, and a visit to your local sage’s guild or learning institution can likely allow further learning on the subject. And, of course, I am open to any queries you may have.

-Cedric Fruvous
Sorcerer of Stars
Guildmaster, Ashbury Sage’s Guild
 
Arkade,
It is very simple, if you call upon the powers of Chaos magic to do anything, you are a necromancer. If you enjoy or tolerate the company of undead, you are a necromancer. If you have not done any of these things you are not a necromancer. If you are thinking about doing these things I know myself and a few Ogres who would be more than willing to "Discuss" that decision with you.

-Shenk
 
Kerjal,
I would be -very- careful in labeling the spell of Life and Resurrection "Proper Necromancy." You will find healers -very- offended by this notion, including myself, because it could be misconstrued into saying that healers who choose to resurrect individuals or cast life spells are necromancers.

And that, is very, very dangerous ground.

-Aislynn Ravenshire

((*spelling error*))
 
I have found that in this discussion there are quite a few people who are attempting to discuss the intricacies of magic through an ideologically or politically tainted lens. This is a severe fault that, if one truly seeks to understand magic, rather then just use it, must be overcome. I have spoken to a good number of healers who have shared your concern, but in the end, it is always the word Necromancy and ideas that they have ascribed to Necromancy that they choose to quarrel with. Proper Necromancy is simply putting a spirit into a body. I could call it Essence Weaving or Corpse Filling or Phillip and it would describe the same aspect of magic. I would find no quarrel with any healer had I called these spells by any of those names, but as soon as it is given a name which contains a word that was given a connotation by some unrelated action, these same healers pull themselves to arms.

One must be careful to consider the sources of information one is given when learning the ways of magic. The more zeal and dogma that a skill is taught with, the less applicable it becomes. Being taught to hate necromancy (in any form) as a part of learning magic is no different then being taught to hate dairy while learning to cook. Both are parts of the whole, and without a proper understanding of how either alters the final product, you will never master either skill. Certainly, there are places and times when necromancy (by the usual definition) will cause harm to the surroundings. But I know that not from having it drilled into me by a fanatical healer, but from having studied the effects directly, measurably. I know also that there are many locations that this is not true. Making a statement like "even a cause wounds spell perverts the natural cycle and damages the earth" without a clause for these locations is an embarrassing way to erode one's own reputation as a scholar of magical arts. Care must be taken with one's terminology if one wishes to participate in an informed discourse on magical theory in a public space, and so I have used the term "Proper Necromancy" and defined it, as requested by Arkade when taking up this subject. If you have further quarrel with proper terminology, I highly recommend looking into the source of the terminology you choose to use, and seeing if it is really specific enough for your needs. If you simply need a word for "Magic which calls upon Chaos," then continue to use it as the masses have been, as that definition has become implicit in casual conversation. If, however, you wish to engage with Wizards of higher caliber, then it would behoove you to come to the table informed.

Kerjal Obcidian
Sorcerer of the Split Sky
Guildmaster of the Inner Circle
Guildmaster of the Stars at Camp 12
Son of the Verdant Spire
 
How does a self proclaimed celestial mage have such an "understanding" of what - are you kidding - "Proper Necromancy?" What the.....

I'm far too angry to put together coherent thoughts right now...
 
Ezri-

Calm down. Kerjal is right. Dairy is evil.
 
Quite frankly, given how you refer to yourself as a 'Wizard of higher caliber', I would rather hold discussion with a blind pauper in the street. He at least knows by smell when he has shoved his head up his backside.

If you truly have the audacity as well as the gall to think that you can compare necromancy to cooking, I feel sorry for those who protect you. They will meet a quick end by your own folly.

Arkade, read Natasha's words; she was a friend of mine, and that treaty of hers that is printed will forever express things that some people will apparently never understand.

-Aislynn Ravenshire
 
I chose dairy quite randomly, but in hindsight it is quite appropriate. I find that it is often as disagreeable to me as some who have stumbled across this conversation.

It is, of course, quite expected to receive such "input" on a topic such as this. As I said before, fear and ignorance play a key role in limiting the amount of constructive discourse that can be dredged from such a public conversation.

Now, I hope my lesson on the power of Words has made an impression on you. I have used the word "Necromancy" several times, and made a distinct effort to do so as neutrally as possible. But, because you expect to hear only negative things about it, and I have not fulfilled that expectation, you have ascribed to me the qualities of the thing you hate. Please, re-read what I have written, and see that this is the case. You will notice a focus on terminology and verbiage in each correspondence prior to this, nearly to the point of leaving the original topic. Now that that lesson has come to an end, and the Necromancy bit as well I suppose, I will answer the other statements and inquiries.

First, (though I thought it went without saying, I am concerned that you are still unable to remove yourself from the previous lesson and may continue to ascribe such to myself) it is not my intention to publicly condone 'necromancy.' I am neither undead nor do I prance about raising them.

Second, by 'Wizard of higher caliber' I specifically intended to those who would learn with an open mind, rather then those who choose to fume and foam at new information that they disagree with.

Third, I have the audacity. I have engaged in the 'adventuring lifestyle' for over ten years, and no experience in that time has led me to believe I should not act boldly. In that time, no one has died protecting me, and from any folly I have made I have emerged more knowledgeable.

Finally, I am not certain where I proclaimed myself a 'celestial mage,' as it was not during this discourse, but it may well have been during another. The fact of the matter is that I cast quite confidently from both schools of magic, though it is true that my primary focus is in Celestial Battle Magic. While there are certainly both Earth and Celestial Ritualists who are more accomplished then I, in all of my travels I have yet to meet any member of the 'adventuring lifestyle' more accomplished in my field then myself. You question my arrogance, that is its source.

I have found among casters that there are distinct levels, classes, if you will, of practitioners. These rank from "I can throw fire!!!" up on to those few who delve into the very essence of the primary source. I strive to be one of the latter, and have some disdain for the prior, which I may have let show through, and so I apologize for that. However, know that through study of Proper Necromancy I have both been able to deny an evil entity even an attempt at Resurrection and able to restore life to a permanently dead companion. Doubt not its power, nor its validity as an art.

~Kerjal
 
I believe you all are responding with the intense emotion that most races have toward Necromancy. To keep it simple, calling upon Chaos is detrimental to life and the land and should never be cast by anyone. However, I do find some "technical" merit in Goodman Kerjal's comment on the term "Necromancy" itself. Broken down the word means "Death Magic" or "Magic of the Dead". When looking at it's component parts one can see that Life/Death spells and even Resurrections could easily fit under that heading. Since those don't involve calling upon Chaos they have been afforded a position outside the classification of Necromancy. Etymologically the term is still valid, though it's use in this case is frowned upon, as evidenced by the comments of Goodladies Ezri and Aislynn.

Only some Chaos magics deal directly with the dead. I have heard the term Chaosmancy suggested as an all-inclusive term for both the "Cause" series of spells and those dealing directly with the dead. Personally, I believe that Chaosmancy is a more accurate term as it immediately identifies Chaos as the source of the magic and removes Life/Death spells and Resurrections from the classification.

As for myself, I would never use the word "Necromancy" to refer to anything but Chaos magics. Most of the world follows that view and I would never inflict an emotional burden on anyone by using a term that is so blatantly upsetting to so many. My question to Goodman Kerjal would be: Would you rather be technically right but offend everyone you meet OR have the wherewithal to bite your tongue for a moment so that you may have smooth relations with those who could be your allies?

Telokh Amdo
 
Telokh Amdo-

Why does the viewpoint taken by the world determine the correctness of a term?
Does this extend anywhere besides words?
Does it apply to smaller areas than the entire world?

-Tieran Cyak
 
Power of words indeed.

You have insulted me, quite plainly. You've chosen to call me fearful, ignorant, and in your beginning words fanatical. I in turn retorted defensively, considering the fact that if I am these things, I apparently am not the only one. And it would be the Earth, not -you-, that allowed for both the refusal for resurrection, and the return of your companion. Do not hold yourself so high.

Telokh, while I appreciate an emotionless response to such a topic, please understand that it is more that just the word of it that stings here. My initial hope was that he would watch his tongue, due to the ground he tread upon resembling thin ice. He chose to stomp up and down about it, as well as immediately assume that I am a less intelligent being for my concerns. That bothers me greatly.

-Aislynn Ravenshire
 
Kerjal,

Necromancy is a powerful word, this cannot be denied. Though ascribing benign magical practices such as resurrection and life spells to Necromancy would be akin to calling soldiers murders because both kill people. Like it or not, Necromancy refers to spells that call upon chaos. If you wish to play word games that are correct only technically that is your prerogative but I would anticipate more outraged misunderstandings were I you.

What makes me question your stance on Necromancy is not your entreaty to understand it (for I firmly believe one can study something without ever practicing it) but rather your blatantly erroneous implication that necromancy does not harm the earth. You admit to having seen instances where this is true, but in the next breath claim that there are areas that are unaffected. The word you are missing in your claim that some lands are not damaged by chaos magic is 'yet.'

The longer lived races have been around enough to see this damage even before you or I ever walked the land. It is they who have educated us on the damage of necromancy. You may never have seen the damage, but many older than both of us have witnessed the changes in land from the use of necromancy. Additionally, damage can be done before it becomes apparent. To argue that just because you have not seen the damage that reports of it are false seems a flawed manner of investigation.

-Cedric Fruvous
Sorcerer of Stars
 
tieran said:
Telokh Amdo-

Why does the viewpoint taken by the world determine the correctness of a term?
Does this extend anywhere besides words?
Does it apply to smaller areas than the entire world?

-Tieran Cyak
Click to expand...

In practice the collective viewpoint of "the world" (however wide the defintion of that term) always determines the correctness of a term. That has always been the origin of definitions. Given the old meanings of the prefix "necro-" and the suffix "-mancy", the word "Necromancy" did, at one point in the far distant past refer only to magic directly related to death and/or undeath. As with many words the comman usage has shifted so that, in the current times, in most lands, its meaning has shifted to refer to all manner of Chaos magics. My previous comments were of etymological curiosity and speculation. For example: Even though my race refers to itself as Kyralia, I am fully aware that "the world at large" would refer to me as a Stone Elf. As far as they are concerned they are using the correct term. When I am referred to as such I let people know the term we use for ourselves in "our world". Regardless of what I am called, or by whom, I am still the same.

This does extend beyond mere words. Cultures can live side be side and have radically different viewpoints in all matter of areas. At what age is one considered an adult? How many mates is one person allowed to have? Does one kneel, bow, or perform some other action to show respect to someone of higher rank? At what point does the killing of another sentient being become justifiable and not simply cold-blooded murder? There are as many answers to these questions as there are stars in the sky.

Different areas within kingdoms, even different neighborhoods within major cities, can have radically different viewpoints on all matter of subjects. My final advice to anyone is to be sure they know local custom or general consensus before shouting their own beliefs from the rooftops. In some situations such action could cost you your life. In others, merely loss of potential friends and allies.

Telokh Amdo
 
zehnyu said:
Power of words indeed.
............

Telokh, while I appreciate an emotionless response to such a topic, please understand that it is more that just the word of it that stings here. My initial hope was that he would watch his tongue, due to the ground he tread upon resembling thin ice. He chose to stomp up and down about it, as well as immediately assume that I am a less intelligent being for my concerns. That bothers me greatly.

-Aislynn Ravenshire
Click to expand...

The only merit I found in Kerjal's words was the technicality of his definition. His manner in other respects did indeed seem quite heavy handed. My last statement to him was my attempt to get him to "watch his tongue" as well.

However, harsh words from either side can only serve to widen the gap of understanding. Responding to strong emotion with stong (or stronger) emotion can on escalate a situation. Always remember that no matter what differences anyone may have with anyone else, no matter how strange or offensive another's beliefs may be to you, we are all more alike than we are different. Meditate on this and you will find true wisdom that you can apply in all areas of your life.

Telokh Amdo
 
Telokh_Amdo said:
This does extend beyond mere words. Cultures can live side be side and have radically different viewpoints in all matter of areas. At what age is one considered an adult? How many mates is one person allowed to have? Does one kneel, bow, or perform some other action to show respect to someone of higher rank? At what point does the killing of another sentient being become justifiable and not simply cold-blooded murder? There are as many answers to these questions as there are stars in the sky.
Click to expand...

So then one cultures opinion of celestial magic or even necromancy makes that magic good or bad?

I have to disagree with you.

The correctness of an action or a belief or a word has nothing to do whatsoever with any one person or group's opinion of it.

If a thing is evil, it is evil. It does not matter who says it is and who says it is not.

If a thing is wrong, it is wrong.

If a thing is green, it is green, regardless of whether one can see green or not.

-Tieran
 
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