The Undeath

[Hammerfist]

Power of words indeed.

You have insulted me, quite plainly. You've chosen to call me fearful, ignorant, and in your beginning words fanatical. I in turn retorted defensively, considering the fact that if I am these things, I apparently am not the only one. And it would be the Earth, not -you-, that allowed for both the refusal for resurrection, and the return of your companion. Do not hold yourself so high.

Telokh, while I appreciate an emotionless response to such a topic, please understand that it is more that just the word of it that stings here. My initial hope was that he would watch his tongue, due to the ground he tread upon resembling thin ice. He chose to stomp up and down about it, as well as immediately assume that I am a less intelligent being for my concerns. That bothers me greatly.

-Aislynn Ravenshire

Aislynn,
Pehaps you should arrange a forum for Kerjal to discuss what is and what is not necromancy with you and Scarn I am sure that Dikembe, Kimbri and I would also be happy to attend as we are only savages that do not understand what is actually good for the earth and what is not. Please let me know when this will occur, I really enjoyed the last discussion that Scarn moderated.

-Shenk

 

[Alor]

Kerjal,

I don't understand most of what is being said here - I can cast no magics and pretend no significant understanding of them. We have met and fought side by side once, and I don't believe you to be a necromancer or "chaosmancer" - Scarn was with us as well. I'd ask that you please, out of respect for those who've shed blood together, be wary of words that might insult his wife - Aeslynn - or one of his close friends - Cedric.

They are good people who I have shed blood with and think of as family. Words are, without doubt, powerful... and they are often misunderstood to bad ends here while we dream. I am also no zealot, but have seen the damage Chaos and necromancy do very clearly, and first hand. Please consider your words and how they might be taken by those who would be your friends, or at least, allies.

Alor

 

[Telokh_Amdo]

So then one cultures opinion of celestial magic or even necromancy makes that magic good or bad?

I have to disagree with you.

The correctness of an action or a belief or a word has nothing to do whatsoever with any one person or group's opinion of it.

If a thing is evil, it is evil. It does not matter who says it is and who says it is not.

If a thing is wrong, it is wrong.

If a thing is green, it is green, regardless of whether one can see green or not.

-Tieran

I was speaking of possible negative reactions one receives for shouting their own beliefs from rooftops as well as the tendency some have to jump to quick judgements based an another's professed belief. There are certain universal constants to be sure and I would say that the detrimental effects of Necromancy are among them. There are others, however, that have different degrees of wrongness. One culture may allow the slaying of an individual based on the killer merely having been insulted or stolen from. Others do not feel the same and require more of a cause to justify the killing.

Evil is the same. Many of those who are often times (incorrectly) called Barbarians would tell you that Celestial magic is evil. As a practitioner of that magic i couldn't disagree more, so that would not fit under a univeral constant. I am also sure that, as a Biata, you certainly do not find exposure to Celestial magic to be a pleasant experience. That doesn't necessarily mean you will find it evil, but you might. Anyone dealing with the Barbarian or Biata races would be wise to take possible reactions into account when casting Celestial magic in the vicinity. That type of caution is what I was trying to instill in Kerjal in his discussion of Necromancy, though in no way was I condoning the use of that magic.

If you look closely, many beliefs that you take for granted could fall into this discussion. If the meanings of all actions/beliefs/words were as obvious as you suggest then there would never be any animosity between anyone in the world. Everyone would immediately understand what the other person was trying to do/say and no misunderstandings would ever occur. Ther mere fact that we can have such a lengthy discussion on this subject would seem to prove my point.

Telokh Amdo

 

[Wilde_Night]

Necromancy is a part of a detrimental and often unbalancing unnatural occurance. Nature follows certain rules, Necromancy breaks these rules. Not just breaks - rends them to pieces then laughs at the remains. If a dead body is supposed to be returned to life, why does it not return to the state of undecay that it does when one uses the "Gift" of life upon it or when ressurection is possible? Necromancy does not follow the rules of nature. The use of the magic is taught so that the scholars may understand that power comes with a price - a price that will affect all in the end.

I have been forbidden to learn the art of Earthen Magic, for the specific purpose of my own personal issues with control. And I know that my elders have done so wisely. I have held in my hands the power of Death. And while Death is not necromantic/chaotic in necessarily - it is a power that needs to be used wisely. I have long since lost the power that once surged through me from the Plane of Death and everyday I long for it to return. I can only imagine the corruption the chaotic arts would have on a person, the need to use it more and more. Using it until the very spirit is corrupted, then everything around you withers and dies whether you want it to or not.

This is not a life I would think many would enjoy. But by the time the corruption reaches that level, I am not sure the wielder would care anymore.

 

[tieran]

I was speaking of possible negative reactions one receives for shouting their own beliefs from rooftops as well as the tendency some have to jump to quick judgements based an another's professed belief. There are certain universal constants to be sure and I would say that the detrimental effects of Necromancy are among them. There are others, however, that have different degrees of wrongness. One culture may allow the slaying of an individual based on the killer merely having been insulted or stolen from. Others do not feel the same and require more of a cause to justify the killing.

Evil is the same. Many of those who are often times (incorrectly) called Barbarians would tell you that Celestial magic is evil. As a practitioner of that magic i couldn't disagree more, so that would not fit under a univeral constant. I am also sure that, as a Biata, you certainly do not find exposure to Celestial magic to be a pleasant experience. That doesn't necessarily mean you will find it evil, but you might. Anyone dealing with the Barbarian or Biata races would be wise to take possible reactions into account when casting Celestial magic in the vicinity. That type of caution is what I was trying to instill in Kerjal in his discussion of Necromancy, though in no way was I condoning the use of that magic.

If you look closely, many beliefs that you take for granted could fall into this discussion. If the meanings of all actions/beliefs/words were as obvious as you suggest then there would never be any animosity between anyone in the world. Everyone would immediately understand what the other person was trying to do/say and no misunderstandings would ever occur. Ther mere fact that we can have such a lengthy discussion on this subject would seem to prove my point.

Telokh Amdo

I'm not speaking of a belief in whether or not someone or some group thinks of something as evil.

The evilness or goodness of something is independant of what anyone thinks of it.

And I never stated that these things are obvious, just that they are the way that they are.

It is nearly completely nonsensical for one to assume that one person can believe that slavery is good, and one to believe that it is evil, and for both of them to be correct.

 

[Alavatar]

It is nearly completely nonsensical for one to assume that all nations have the same definition of right and wrong, or good and evil.

Good and evil are completely dependant on the society that defines those terms. One society may consider the use of Euphoria and Love Potion #9 to be good and fine, while a nation of Mystic Wood Folk might abolish the use of those concoctions. One nation may allow you to challenge a person to a duel with the intention of one of you dying, while another nation may think that barbaric, evil, and wrong and so will not allow it.

Another good example is a couple Baronies in Andar. While they do not condone Chaosmancy, they have outlawed Earth Magic and have actually executed the Earth Guild leaders within those lands. So, while we might think Earth Magic is good these Baronies think it to be bad.

Regards,
Alavatar Peece
Red Wizard of the Crossroads

 

[tieran]

It is completely nonsensical to prattle off a long winded response that completely ignores the basic premise of the conversation.

Good and evil has nothing to do with people's feelings about it.

One group considering something good or evil is completely unimportant.

The thing is good or evil completely independant of what people think about it.

If you were to go to a land that required you to transform yourself into an undead, would you cast chaos to heal yourself there?

Or would you instead never go, knowing that transforming yourself into undead is wrong?

Or would you go, and obey the laws of that land and know that while you are doing so, it is good, and then return to your homeland after transforming yourself back, and think that you had done nothing wrong?

In the examples of the Baronies that have outlawed earth magics, their opinion doesn't matter. Good and evil are not always equal to legal and illegal. And one societies opinion about whether something is good or evil does not make it so.

 

[Saephis]

I've seen Earth magics run so rampant that the land itself wasn't safe for that which was not foilage. This speaks to support claims such as anything in excess is not natural. All things need balance, for without balance it throws everything to the wind and nothing can truly exist.

Earth balances with Chaos. Fire with Ice. Stone with Lightning. One cannot truly exist without the other. What is Day without Night? What is Good if Evil doesn't exist?

Do not take this to think that Undeath is well and good, for I will fight until my last breath to stop that which corrupts the unwilling. But any student of magics who refuses to believe that balance isn't a reality is only fooling themselves.

Eli'Razael Davae'Sahkar Saephis
Knight to the Republic of Unending Night
Lord of Andar
Order of the Midnight Sun

 

[Alavatar]

Tieran,

How did you acquire your knowledge of good and evil? Was it taught to you by another? If so, then your knowledge is the emulation of your teacher's, therefore dependant on what is considered right or wrong within the society.

My point is that if a person lives in a society that believes something is good and right, generally that person will believe what their society believes. That person will also believe that nations that do differently are either insane, evil, or dangerous. Good and evil are completely subjective to the person defining them.

As to your question, I would not go to that nation. In fact, there is a place where I am that is very similar to what you describe, called the Undying Isles, which I have never been to and never plan on going because I don't want to be undead. Not because it is necromancy, but because I don't like the negative effects it may incur.

You're right, good does not always equal legal. However, if a person is brought up in a lawful society and taught to believe that the laws are good, then that person would equate their society to being a good society, despite it potentially condoning Chaosmancy, slavery, or personal justice. Therefore, good and evil are dependant on the individual, group, society, and nation for definition.

Regards,
Alavatar Peece
Red Wizard of the Crossroads

 

[Hammerfist]

Alavatar,
So are you saying that if you found some undead that did not have the negative effects that you "don't like" you would willingly change into one. As you have not stated what those particular "negative effects" are as it is obviously not that fact that it is necromantic, one can only speculate. I will be sure to remember that if anyone ever accuses you of consorting with undead or necromancers.

-Shenk

 

[Alavatar]

Alavatar,
So are you saying that if you found some undead that did not have the negative effects that you "don't like" you would willingly change into one. As you have not stated what those particular "negative effects" are as it is obviously not that fact that it is necromantic, one can only speculate. I will be sure to remember that if anyone ever accuses you of consorting with undead or necromancers.

-Shenk

If ever you find a way to make an undead healed by Earth magic, capable of reproducing, capable of aging and dying of old age, capable of being intoxicated, and not constantly hunted then I would be interested in the process.

Please don't make assumptions. They only cause mistakes.

 

[Hammerfist]

It is not making assumptions when you state spcifically that something being Necromantic would not be a deterrant. I quote "Not because it is necromancy, but because I don't like the negative effects it may incur.".

-Shenk

 

[Alavatar]

If you wish to continue having me defend myself then perhaps we should do so via Private Missives. Currently, it is not relavent to the prior topic.

 

[Hammerfist]

Alavatar,
Actually your feelings on Necrmancy are paramount to this discussion. You obviouisly do not have any particular problem with Necromancers or Necromancy in general other than some of the side effects of being undead. I on the other hand consider this to be suspicious and you are to be considered a person of interest whenever any hint of Necromancy is around. This complete contrast in viewpoints is exactly the discussion that is being had here. However if it makes you uncomfortable to try and defend your ideals perhaps you need to rethink your position.

-Shenk

 

[Saephis]

Shenk,

I would advise you to rethink your position. Alavatar would have no use for Necromancy, given this prior mentions of what benefits would be required. He is quite happy as the living and has not had any indication of enjoying the company of the unliving.

As was mentioned, there is a nation ruled by a council of undead whose entire populance is just that: The undead. Alavatar has fought against them whenever the opportunity presented itself, along side many other with similar ideals.

Additionally, Alavatar is incapable of casting Necromancy at this time. Unless Fires and Binding suddenly spawn forth undead, of course. You are also speaking against an upstanding member of the Baron Polare Lissenstine's household, along with those he associates with.

It is quite obvious you're looking for a fight, however this is not the correct avenue to be looking for it.

Eli'Razael Davae'Sahkar Saephis
Knight to the Republic of Unending Night
Lord of Andar
Order of the Midnight Sun

 

[Alavatar]

Shenk,

Since you feel it necessary that I defend myself publically, I will oblige you.

First, I did not say I condone necromancy. That was an assumption you made. You went from my statement, "Not because it is necromancy, but because I don't like the negative effects it may incur" to your first assumption "So are you saying that if you found some undead that did not have the negative effects that you "don't like" you would willingly change into one." Note, that was a statement you made, not a question. After a tongue-in-cheek response you then made your second assumption, "you state specifically that something being Necromantic would not be a deterrant". You assumed that it is not a deterrant, you stated that, you did not ask for clarification. Then, after offering to discuss this further privately, you openly assumed that I "obviouisly do not have any particular problem with Necromancers or Necromancy in general other than some of the side effects of being undead" and threateningly noted that if necromancy is brought up you consider me a "person of interest". For the record, could you define what a "person of interest" is?

Your assumptions have lead you to false conclusions. Before making more assumptions I advise that you ask for clarification. I also recommend that if you really want to continue this discussion I would appreciate it if we moved to letters.

I did not join this discussion to aire my views on chaosmancy. Seeing as I cannot even First Aid another person I felt that my views on the subject would not be appreciated. I came to discuss how good and evil are defined since the debate turned in that direction and that topic is much more general and universal then the initial one. Since the topic of discussing how good and evil are defined has passed I believe my presence is not longer needed here. Good day to you all.

Regards,
Alavatar Peece
Red Wizard of the Crossroads

 

[tieran]

Tieran,

How did you acquire your knowledge of good and evil? Was it taught to you by another? If so, then your knowledge is the emulation of your teacher's, therefore dependant on what is considered right or wrong within the society.

My point is that if a person lives in a society that believes something is good and right, generally that person will believe what their society believes. That person will also believe that nations that do differently are either insane, evil, or dangerous. Good and evil are completely subjective to the person defining them.

As to your question, I would not go to that nation. In fact, there is a place where I am that is very similar to what you describe, called the Undying Isles, which I have never been to and never plan on going because I don't want to be undead. Not because it is necromancy, but because I don't like the negative effects it may incur.

You're right, good does not always equal legal. However, if a person is brought up in a lawful society and taught to believe that the laws are good, then that person would equate their society to being a good society, despite it potentially condoning Chaosmancy, slavery, or personal justice. Therefore, good and evil are dependant on the individual, group, society, and nation for definition.

Regards,
Alavatar Peece
Red Wizard of the Crossroads

Alvatar-

I have made no claim that I know which things are good and which are evil.

All I am saying, for the third or fourth time, is that the goodness or evilness of a thing is completely independant of anyone's belief about it.

Good and evil are most certainly not subjective.

The opinion of a society (and read this carefully) only determines what that society believes to be good or evil. Those beliefs are not neccesarily correct.

If you believe the a leaf to be green, and everyone else believes it to be purple, does that make you wrong?

If the leaf is green it is green, it matters not what other people's opinion on its color is.

The same is true of good and evil. A thing either is good or it is evil. Slavery is either good or evil. Necromancy is either good or evil. Chivalry is either good or evil.

I apologize for not stating this clearly enough for you to understand it the first several times.

 

[obcidian_bandit]

We have met and fought side by side once, and I don't believe you to be a necromancer or "chaosmancer" - Scarn was with us as well. ... I am also no zealot, but have seen the damage Chaos and necromancy do very clearly, and first hand.

Pehaps you should arrange a forum for Kerjal to discuss what is and what is not necromancy with you and Scarn I am sure that Dikembe, Kimbri and I would also be happy to attend as we are only savages that do not understand what is actually good for the earth and what is not.

I have fought beside Scarn on a number of times in Valdenis, as has Alavatar. If I recall, the primary opponents we faced were Chaos tainted Drakes and their barbaric riders, as well as a full fledged Dragon. I know well his feelings on the matter, I have seen the passion with which he combats necromancy. Surely his motivation is strong, but I have not basis from which to judge its source, and would therefore make no disparaging remarks against it. I am further uncertain why your savagery or incapacity to judge your actions would lend any aid to such a conversation.

What makes me question your stance on Necromancy is not your entreaty to understand it ... but rather your blatantly erroneous implication that necromancy does not harm the earth. ... The word you are missing in your claim that some lands are not damaged by chaos magic is 'yet.'

Quite the contrary. I have found that in lands that are harmed by necromancy, the effects are fairly quickly apparent. Within the span of as few as ten years the effects can usually be seen. In the lands where I originally learned magic, necromancy was quite legal, and had been for thousands of years, with no adverse affects to the land. I have been to many such lands as that one, some where even Celestial magic was illegal, and Necromancy was the only legal damaging magic. While some of these lands were certainly 'tainted' by necromancy, the land barren and the wildlife emaciated, this was not necessarily the rule. I have not had a chance to study the effects of necromancy on all of these lands as I passed through them, many were not hospitable, so I am unable to draw full conclusions from each, but of the unaffected areas I have studied, I have generally assumed that several thousand years was enough time for any adverse effect to arise. As Lord Eli pointed out, there exist lands similarly 'tainted' by an over-abundance of Earth magic, and they are often just as dangerous as those overcome by necromancy.

You have additionally made the assumption that every place I refer to has contact with the 'Earth,' while I intentionally specified 'land.' There is quite a difference, which is of considerable importance. I assure you, the lands of from which Foundation elementals spring forth, the Planes of Fire, Ice, Stone, and Lightning, are quite removed. No amount of necromancy in these places will in any way impact Fortannis.

To argue that just because you have not seen the damage that reports of it are false seems a flawed manner of investigation.

My methods are quite thorough, and while it is possible, in fact likely, that I occasionally miss pertinent facts, I in no way base my knowledge off of my sole experience. Quite often my research is derived from other, more ancient studies, both providing a reference point to the past as well as new methods and information.

And it would be the Earth, not -you-, that allowed for both the refusal for resurrection, and the return of your companion. Do not hold yourself so high.

In neither case was I inhabiting the Earth, nor did it have any bearing on what was accomplished. In the first case it was a matter of treating with the Lord of Death himself for the power I required, on his own realm. The second involved opening a gate to the Graveyard of Heroes and taking the spirit back by force. The Earth will give a body to any spirit strong enough to survive the process of Resurrection, regardless of the method the spirit took to get into a Circle. Failing the Earth's cooperation at that point, it would have been a simple matter of a few rituals to create another body if it had been necessary.

So far as the Good v. Evil debate goes, I must academically fall on the side of 'nearly everything is relative.' There are actions which one might abhor, but there are certainly those which one might abhor less. That is, if put into a situation where a great 'good' that can come is from an 'evil' act, is it more or less evil to undertake the action, or to let the good go undone? Academically, it is easy to argue on one side or the other. We live our lives in the practice, and in the end must feel that the decision was right with ourselves alone.

~Kerjal

 

[Hammerfist]

Alavatar,
I will define "Person of Interest" for you. Someone who should be interviewed and watched should the taint of necromancy be discovered nearby. If you wish to discuss your views on necromancy through, letters that is fine. I am interested in clarifying exactly what your stance is on the issue as it is unclear at this point exactly what you believe, as you have precieved contridictions in your own statements.

On a related note, I will say this final thing for all to hear as I believe it to be an important misconception that people have when dealing with Necromancy in genereal. Just because someone cannont cast Earth magic's or provide first aid to their fallen friends, this does not prevent them from using magical items or dealing directly with beings of necromancy. Alavatar I say this not as a threat or to "start a fight" but as a word of advise when making an argument in defense of yourself. I look forward to hearing from you.

-Shenk

 

[Ren Suzume]

This conversation has quickly deteriorated from a civilized exchange of information to a necromancer/evildoer hunt. I beseech all those taking part to return to the original spirit of the debate and abandon this pointless mental mud-slinging.

Apprentice Ren Suzume