The Undeath

My inital intent was to gain more knowlage of chaosmancy and to find exact clarification for a few questions. It seams that this topic is a very touchy one. Should somone not have a problem with chaosmancy it seams those who do become very loud. I assume that all of us would defend any one's lands from the undead, as we all would from any other entity. I assume also that manny of us are trying to gain a better understanding of somthing as powerfull as chaos. Should chaos and everything involving it be obliterated as oposed to studied? Mayhap, Could there possably be some way to co-exist with the powers of chaos? Theres alwase a chance, no matter how small. Do I personaly have a problem with chaos? Nay, I do however, have a very big problem with those who would do wrong with it. Could I hate the earth for nuturing the one who earthstorms a friend to death? Nay, all in all, it is the direct action of others that brings peace or distruction. I hope that the acusations and anger can seace in this discusion. It is obvious that we are not trying to inform but to condemn eachother.

(please dont mind spelling)
Arkade Prince
 
Apprentice Ren,

Unfortunately such discussions frequently degenerate to such a level. I am never surprised when it occurs, though often disappointed.

-Cedric Fruvous
Sorcerer of Stars
 
Kerjal,

Contrary to what you claim the Earth is harmed by necromancy regardless of what region you are in. Different areas may be affected more quickly than others (just as the same plague may sweep through one person quite swiftly while another lingers for quite some time.) So while some lands are spoiled quickly by prolonged use of necromancy, others may manage to hold up under the onslaught for an astonishing amount of time, which is why so many lesser lived races presume that there is no actual damage…they do not see it nor do their immediate forbearers. The damage is still done however, and while the earth can recover from damage done to it, continued onslaughts of chaos magic make it more difficult and lessen the chances of success and some lands completely despoiled may take many tens of thousands of years to recover, if they can recover at all.

To the claim of Lord Eli, which you seem to support, that “too much Earth” in an area is destructive I find fault with this claim. While an area can flourish to such an extent, populations of flora and fauna can be kept in balance with mundane hunting and logging methods. No current method known to mortals can so easily and simply remove the damage done by necromancy.

As to performing necromancy in other realms (such as the elemental planes) it is possible that it would not damage Fortannis, though you have made no compelling argument to that effect. Further, even if your postulation is accurate given the proven damage that necromancy causes when performed on Fortannis, I suspect that it damages the realm one is in when they perform necromancy. Despoiling someone else’s natural habitat simply because it is not your own is unacceptable.

Your methods may be thorough but if they lead you to conclude that necromancy is ever acceptable or that it does not harm the earth than you have still reached an erroneous conclusion. I have also studied ancient sources as well as those contemporary, spoken with learned and keen minds both ancient and less seasoned and performed a great deal of research. Necromancy harms the earth; this is fact. Those who claim otherwise are shortsighted, ignorant or endeavoring to justify the foul acts of themselves or their allies.

-Cedric Fruvous
Sorcerer of Stars
Guildmaster, Ashbury Sage’s Guild
 
tieran said:
Alvatar-

I have made no claim that I know which things are good and which are evil.
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I am sorry. I meant to say that you, as an individual, have some knowledge of good and evil. I did not mean to imply that you knew what was absolutely good or absolutely evil.

tieran said:
All I am saying, for the third or fourth time, is that the goodness or evilness of a thing is completely independant of anyone's belief about it.

Good and evil are most certainly not subjective.

The opinion of a society (and read this carefully) only determines what that society believes to be good or evil. Those beliefs are not neccesarily correct.

If you believe the a leaf to be green, and everyone else believes it to be purple, does that make you wrong?

If the leaf is green it is green, it matters not what other people's opinion on its color is.

The same is true of good and evil. A thing either is good or it is evil. Slavery is either good or evil. Necromancy is either good or evil. Chivalry is either good or evil.

I apologize for not stating this clearly enough for you to understand it the first several times.
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That is where I disagree. Actions are neutral, it is the intent behind the action that gives individuals, groups, societies and nations the ability to determine if the action is good or evil. It is all based on perception, and perception based conclusions are always subjective to the person or people who perceive it.

For your leaf example: Why do I believe the leaf to be green? Why does everyone else believe it to be purple? Am I looking at the leaf at an odd angle, therefore seeing something the others cannot see? Or did I see the leaf in a different light then everyone else, which changes the perceived color of the leaf? Am I unable to see purple and so therefore see green?

Is killing another sentient being evil? That depends why person A killed person B. The action itself is not evil, just the intent behind it can be. If it is murder, then it is often considered evil. If it is to defend yourself or someone else it is generally considered good. The action is the same, the intent is not.

Is slavery evil? It can be. I was a slave for a time, which was not a pleasant experience by the way, for minotaurs and that was definately not good. However, I have seen slavery that was more akin to a communist society where the "slaves" are protected, fed, treated well, and given incentives for hard work where the "citizens" are the ones that govern and form the military. Is that latter form of slavery evil? I would say no, but that is just my opinion.

Is chivalry evil? Chivalry is merely a form of etiquette. Evil people can easily be chivalrous, and good people can easily be ignorant. Once again, the action of being chivalrous is not evil, nor is it good. A smart evil-doer would be chivalrous to gain trust before killing/stealing/destroying/whatever. Does that make chivalry evil? No. It might make the intent behind the use of chivalry evil, though.

The same can be said of many other things. However I think this more clearly sums up my argument for this debate. Basically, good and evil are not absolute. There are many actions considered to be evil when, in fact, they have just been associated with those who have used those actions with evil intent.

Regards,
Alavatar Peece
Red Wizard of the Crossroads

P.S. I did not speak about Chaosmancy because as soon as anyone states that they consider something worse then that they are immediately accused of being a necromancer or associating with necromancers. Therefore, I refuse to discuss anything on that topic until people can debate it without turning it into a witch hunt.
 
Leaving the thorny discussion of evil vs. benevolant acts aside, can anyone in the know explain the planar realm of Chaos? Many societies have outlawed Chaos and Necromancy on the basis that they are "against the flow of nature" or "unnatural". Is the planar realm of Chaos unnatural as well? And, if so, is its opposite, Earth, also unnatural?


Dramthin Hartsboon
Simple Keeper of the Tainted Grove
 
Actually, the Planar realm of Chaos is the opposite of the Planar realm of Order. How it came to be the opposite of the Element of Earth is not something I am learned on. When the eight Elemental Knights existed, we were all linked to our respective planes - Earth, Air, Fire, Water, Life, Death, Chaos and Order. So I would think that in reality perhaps what we consider Earth Magic may not actually be Earth Magic? Or perhaps Chaos Magic is really Air? But celestial magic is often considered Air/Fire/Water... it is all a giant enigma.
 
In my experiences, the plane of chaos naturally and rightfully exists as the opposite to the plane of order. The chaos elementals existing on that plane are normal and have a right to exist there. The problem occurs when the chaos elementals interact with our plane. They become innately destructive as their powers create or combine with the plane of undeath forming or emulating necromancy. It has been clearly documented how necromancy taints and destroys the land (regardless of how long it appears to take), and why the good peoples of this land need to stand against it.

I have personally observed creatures of chaos claiming to be of "pure" chaos. These creatures, ranging from what appeared to be a powerful elemental, to an actual dragon, claim that chaos can be "pure" and that necromancy is both a perversion of the earth and of chaos. These creatures showed revulsion toward necromancers, the chaos dragon clearly delighted in tormenting a known and marked biata necromancer named Veil (who should be treated with extreme caution if ever encountered, she has fled into the mists) Weather or not their claims are accurate is not for me to decide... for in my experience anything calling on chaos in our plane is damaging our plane with it's energy and should be stopped immediately, either by its destruction, or informing it that it's presence on this plane is damaging and that it should leave immediately.

I wish to make it clear, just because one is on another plane doesn't mean it is safe to cast necromancy or any other form of chaos magic. Chaos is most likely just as destructive to other planes as it is on ours. Also, a warning to planar travelers... be careful about casting normally safe magics of earth and even mystic forces while "traveling abroad". One can never be sure which forms of energy you are calling forth may be destructive to other planes and you should attempt to minimize any possible damage.

-Pantzike
Observations of Elementals and Dragon in Question were made from the continent of Laerthan
 
If Order and Chaos are planar opposites, why are Earth and Chaos spells combined in the mind and tongues of every Earth mage? As well, if Chaos is opposed to Order, why don't Binding spells, the theoretical opposite of Chaos, destroy Chaos elementals? Where do Earth and Chaos cross? And, hold the ferry, you said there is a plane of Undeath? Where'd THAT come from? I'm very confused, but find this all very fascinating!

Wildescent, I'm intrigued in what you say regarding Earth Magic, though, I'm not sure I follow all of it. Earth magic may not be tied to Fortannis' spirit?


Dramthin Hartsboon
Simple Keeper of the Tainted Grove
 
I have never heard of the Plane of Undeath, but I learn new things everyday. I only knew of the eight "Greater" planes.

I would truly like to understand how earth and chaos magics got their common 'tag' in Fortannis. In casting Celestial magic as I am able to do, I know I summon the forces of Earth, Air, Fire and Water. So would Celestial magic not be better to be called something else - being that it does not come from the sky and stars, but from the power of four of the greater elements? Then, would Earthen magic then be better described as something else as well, since both schools of magics rely on Elemental essence to wield? Perhaps one should be refered to as the Offensive and the other the Defensive (in reference to the 'non-chaotic' spells.) There is obviously some intermingling with spells, but that is the overall essence of each school of magic.
I understand that the necromantic sides to the planar casting is frowned upon and outlawed for a reason. On our plane of existance it causes damaging effects and can be considered extremely powerful and sometimes difficult to cull. But are there any scholars or books of knowledge old enough to explain why the magics were categorized as they were?
 
It sounds to me that the four core elements are all outr world need to live. Celestial casters might want to just call themselves elementalists. Could earth magics possably come from the plane of Law? I suppose it is possable, unlikely as it sounds. Life and death, law and chaos, possably chaos dosent harm the earth but the essence of Law on our plane. I'm confusing myself..... Dose anyone know an expert?
 
It never ceases to amaze me how many times the same thing can be said over and over again, particularly where this subject is concerned, or how an attempt at logical or informational discussion or debate will inevitably crumble into insults and veiled threats. You will find that most people have given up on finding answers to these kinds of questions, particularly in such a large scale forum as this.

For example, I, on few occasions have spoken with a Chaos Dragon. I think we can all agree a Dragon of Chaos would in fact classify as an expert on the subject. Now we made the mistake of calling that Dragon a necromancer. Thalfidian (the dragon) (sp) was very, very angry at this. Thalfidian explained that chaos is the opposite of order, and just as much a part of the natural cycle of things as any of the other 7 elemental planes. Chaos is randomness, disorder, and unpredictability. He explained that Necromancy is a further perversion of chaos and that we should never make the mistake of assuming that they are the same in his presence, as it would ANGER a DRAGON. This particular Dragon was an avid hunter of all things Necromantic, and even assisted in a battle with one of his brethren who had turned himself into a litch.

The fact is no matter what evidence any of us brings forward there will always be those who cling to what they have always thought to be true. They will jump at any chance to discourage such exchanges of ideas, even unintentionally by the way they will voice what they "know". Some topics are just not meant for open talk. Seek those who can be rational in private, and discuss your ideas in safety. The world is far too close minded a place for these talks.
Until the Moon is no more,
Amaranthus Landcharmer
 
dreadpiratebill said:
Some topics are just not meant for open talk. Seek those who can be rational in private, and discuss your ideas in safety. The world is far too close minded a place for these talks.
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Amaranthus Landcharmer - Were I three people, I could not disagree more. These are EXACTLY the kinds of topics and conversations which should be held in the most public dreamscapes. We do not grow in mind and spirit by seeking refuge in the easy comfort of the known or the simple - we do so by expanding outward and finding challenge and answers in the world around us. If you and your friends had not sought Thalfidian and made the mistake of labeling him a Necromancer you would never have gained the knowledge he had to give nor his assistance as an ally. If Arkade Prince had not brought his question here, he would never have learned such a wealth of perspectives and information. The "world" is not close-minded, it is merely ponderous and, as with any object bearing great weight, it often takes extended and gigantic strength to move it even the barest degree - but if, even at the expense of public turmoil and danger, these kinds of conversations roll our world the merest inch toward enlightenment, we have performed the greatest of tasks. And why limit the number of people who would share in this task?

As for what you spoke of, it sparked a thought. Perhaps the perversion Chaoticians and Necromancers perform is the lineation of Chaos. That is, if Order and Chaos are opposed realms - a valid observation - when those chaotic energies are forced by a sentient mind into an ordered form, they become corrupt. Undead are not perversion of nature because they mimic Life, but because they mimic Order. They harm the land simply because they contain such concentrated Chaos, they 'leak' small amounts of concentrated entropy. However, those who channel 'pure' Chaos energy, like Thalfidian, aren't ordering these energies as much as using themselves as a kind of elemental funnel and, as such, are in balance with the Plane.

Perhaps it's a matter of concentration. Chaos when localized becomes very destructive because it's not acting naturally - just as when Order becomes too spread, it breaks down (anyone who's woven chain-mail knows the greater the swath, the greater the likelihood of a dangling ring). Could it be that when a Chaotician focuses her will on Chaos through a spell, she is, in effect, disrupting planar balance?


Dramthin Hartsboon
Simple Keeper of the Tainted Grove
 
That, perhaps, is as close to the reasoning that Necromancy is considered Chaos magic as we may ever get. It would take some time to research such a hypothesis and it would also require the assistance of Chaos denizens and the local authority to approve the research and use of the spells... which in most lands is something not easily obtained or lightly recieved.

Perhaps one day we will understand it better. But your assessment, Keeper Dramathin, is eerily accurate.
 
I am happy that I disided to ask my question outloud. The minds that have come together in this discussion are nothing short of passionet. I'v learned two very important things from this conversation.

Our world is being protected by hard working passionet adventurers. They feal strongly for the land and the people who dwell in it. They are proud to fight agenst such horrors of the undead. I feal safer knowing that as long as there is a minion of chaos there will be a blade and spell waiting to destroy it.

The second, there are passonate seekers of knowlage that bring us ever closer to understanding. They speek their minds and keep their hearts open for change. Some day, one of them will change the way the world thinks, and for the better.


Thank you, every one, no matter how large or small the contribution, you keep us alive. You keep our minds knowlageable and our defences secure.

May all of you keep your flesh and bone. May the storms pass you, and may your death be memorable.

Arkade Prince
(OOG: dont mind my spelling)
 
In the lands of Icenia.

Necromancy is the casting of chaos magics. The aiding and abetting of undead, and any ritual which by its magical nature is the reverse of earth, or necromantic in nature.

Some "people" define necromancy as only the raising and healing of undead.
Some "people" define necromancy as anything which alters life.

These "people" are incorrect as far as it is viewed by the nobility in Icenia.

Make no mistake that while philosophical discussions on magics can delve into "grey" areas. There is nothing "grey" about Necromancy. You can call it anything you want, by any name you choose... but if someone comes to icenia and Calls upon Chaos by spell, potion, or magic item form, Aids or abetts undead, or casts a Necromantic ritual -- I will take them to the magistrate, report their crimes, and volunteer to death them or obliterate them if it is their second offense. I will also never heal them again and withold any life spells I have in memory and allow "nature" to remove so stupid an individual from this plane of existence.

While the esoteric discussion of Magic is all well and good Kerjal. Unless you have weilded the power of the Earth, you will never truly understand its bond with the land itself. Unless you have felt the flow of healing, and stemmed the blood from a mortal wound, you have no idea the burdon placed upon the healer.

For it is that same magic which knits bones, and stops lifeblood from leaking to the ground, which can cause disease, wither limbs, rend open wounds in a way not meant to be natural, and cause those which sleep in the repost of the afterworld to have their bodies corrupted in a way worse than slavery.

There is no... educated nor open minded discourse on Necromancy.

It is an abomination upon all forms of life.
It is a perversion of the most glorious of magics.
It is the burdeon of everyone who casts Earth magics.

Until you can cast said magics and feel the flow of the Earths potent force through you (Stone bolts dont count), then do not presume to speak on what you obviously dont understand.

And I DO. I have harnessed the formal powers of both classes. I have felt a spell of chaos rend my body and felt the agony of that perversion of magic. I have had a vampire try to claim me as its own. I have seen the tortured spirits of people trapped in a corpse of undeath, and their mindless bodys jerking to the commands of one who dared to summon them from their earned slumber...

And I tell you now. There is no Honorable way to deal or discuss this, except a trial followed by a swift execution for the crimes committed upon the people of the lands and the earth itself.

And to insult a healer for not being "educated" to discuss this subject... You show yourself no more than a biting insect. Small and insignificant and something to be ignored. For ONLY an Earth Caster will ever understand.... and FEAR the reverse of the power they weild.

Every day of my life I live in fear. Because I know that the magic I cast to save lives, to heal the wounds, to purify the blood and the flesh... could be commanded by someone and use me as an instrument for that evil. I fear because I know how terrible a power I could weild.... were someone to take over and command me against my will.

Do not ever mock us Kerjal. For you will never have that pain upon your spirit. You will never have that burdeon. And you will NEVER be able to discuss amongst those who feel the rythem of the earths power... like the ogres and the earth casters can.


And a warning to all. There will be no vigilante justice in Icenia. Every person is allotted a trial and every crime a punishment as metted out by the law. No one is to take a life with their own hands and now allow someone trial before an AUTHORIZED magistrate of the land.

If you do, I will also being you into justice, and you will face sentencing.

In Service

Lady Knight Glorianna Wyndancer Nordenn
Arch Mage of the Prisim
 
Thank you for putting that into words Glorianna - you managed to articulate what I could not.

-Ezri
 
Ezri

Do not thank me.

It took the Dominion to truly make me understand.

I was a fool.
Now I am a fool with a broken heart. But one who will die to her last breath removing the Dominions evil from Fortannis. And then going to every family and begging forgiveness for their lost sons and daughters.

~Glori
 
I'v been sick before, the strength removed from my body. I could hardly walk, a child of only seven years. I ate a plant that I did not know. I am an earth caster, I am a healer. Due to the Law I will not call upon the powers of chaos. Due to the corruption most fall into and the law dispises. I have felt the touch of chaos, and it tourtures me to this day. But, I respect the powers of chaos, powers that I see equal to healing. Why did the earth almost kill me? It was defending itself from a preditor. I will not lay silent in fear of the world's views, thought manny of you will.

By Law I am blameless, by motivation I am just. Calling upon the earth is a way to aid, calling upon chaos is a way to defend. I will condem no one for calling on chaos. I have pride in knowing the power I hold within. I know my place in this world and as such will not call upon chaos due to illplaced laws. I will not stay silent, but I will not be unlawfull.
 
Arkade said:
I'v been sick before, the strength removed from my body. I could hardly walk, a child of only seven years. I ate a plant that I did not know. I am an earth caster, I am a healer. Due to the Law I will not call upon the powers of chaos. Due to the corruption most fall into and the law dispises. I have felt the touch of chaos, and it tourtures me to this day. But, I respect the powers of chaos, powers that I see equal to healing. Why did the earth almost kill me? It was defending itself from a preditor. I will not lay silent in fear of the world's views, thought manny of you will.

By Law I am blameless, by motivation I am just. Calling upon the earth is a way to aid, calling upon chaos is a way to defend. I will condem no one for calling on chaos. I have pride in knowing the power I hold within. I know my place in this world and as such will not call upon chaos due to illplaced laws. I will not stay silent, but I will not be unlawfull.
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Calling Upon Chaos is NOT a way to defend.
You say you felt the touch of Chaos and it tortures you to this day?

Then HOW can you say Chaos is a way to defend?

Chaos is a perversion of the natural order. Chaos animates the dead and mocks their slumber and allows a being of infinite evil to take their bodies and force it to do its bidding.

So instead of the warriors sleeping on the battlefield of their honor having served their country, youre saying its ok to raise their rotting corpses and have them once again fight, the maggots slidling off their withered limbs in a grotequse macabre of life?

There is a difference between a plant paralyzing you. And drinking a potion which withers your limb. One is natural, the other is a sick abomination.

Chaos is not equal to healing.

Healing strengthens the community. It gives aid and succor to the weak and the injured. It is a just and good thing. Mending limbs, and soothing wounds to the injured on the battlefield is an act full of honor and respect.

Go to lands blighted where crops do not grow. Go to where animals cannot give birth to young, who lie stillborn in the womb. And there you will see what Chaos has done to the land. Chaos is the anthisis of healing, and the anthisis of a healthy earth for us to live.

Having someone cast chaos is taking the healthy breath of life from the Earth and turning it into a fetid breath of disease waste and dispair. Respecting it as a force of evil is one thing. But to condone it as an act of defense? By your words then it is acceptable to raise your father from his grave so he can defend your home? You would find that action horrible and inconceivable. Its ruin to the core and NOT a form of defense... it is Necromancy, it is taint, and it is destorying our world.

~Glori
 
Arkade said:
I will condem no one for calling on chaos. I have pride in knowing the power I hold within. I know my place in this world and as such will not call upon chaos due to illplaced laws. I will not stay silent, but I will not be unlawfull.
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... you did NOT just say that... did you? You would hold harmless those that twist and taint the earth to save their own skin? You would run about casting it yourself if it were legal? You sicken me.

Do yourself a favor. DO NOT step foot on the soil of Icenia. While I myself would not take justice upon you, I am not the one you need to worry about.
 
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