v0.10 ...if we did v1.4 instead

Draven said:
I disagree. I think the issue is more "Unlimited Cloaks at 1 HM per purchase." That's certainly an issue; I'd raise Cloak to 2 HM (6 build for a single-use per event ability seems fair). Sure, you could have a caster with a whole buncha High Magic memorize a ton of Cloaks, but that's a whole lotta build they're not directing towards something more generally applicable.

I also suspect that there's going to be waaaaaaay less Formal Levels in the game, under the current proposed rules.
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That is a fine fix too. One point is just too cheap for unlimited.

I do think you are wrong about formal levels, at least for the god class celestial. When you buy formal as celestial you get the high magic, More wand damage, more wand charges, and the ability to cast formal. I was planning on getting at leaset 30 levels, far more then I have ever had before. 30 cloaks, more wand damage/packets, it is pretty great value for your build spent.
 
It was not a golem suit, just a player that played the construct for them in the same way anyone would take a shift.

No PC levels but it was immune to fire damage so a field battle against fire elementals became trivialized. It was almost immune to chaos, death, and several other effects in another battle that made it much better than any other combatant on the field.
 
Tantarus said:
That is a fine fix too. One point is just too cheap for unlimited.

I do think you are wrong about formal levels, at least for the god class celestial. When you buy formal as celestial you get the high magic, More wand damage, more wand charges, and the ability to cast formal. I was planning on getting at leaset 30 levels, far more then I have ever had before. 30 cloaks, more wand damage/packets, it is pretty great value for your build spent.
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Under the proposed rules, the wand damage/charges progression won't matter if you're spending it on Formal or Battlemagic. So if you're spending it on Formal, it means you're choosing Burst Pool/Celestial Armor/Cloaks over, say, Prisons/Bindomancy/Protections/Evocation. I'm not sure which way I'd lean on that trade.
 
Alavatar said:
The Constructs (Master or Normal) are potent, but they are at least manageable when they don't have a PC's card stacking on top of it. Additionally, the owner of the Construct has to find an NPC to play the part. It is also very similar to a Summon Elemental / Extra Planar Creature / etc. (in fact, some of those Summon's can get you a creature that has Greater Fey Curse, like the Satyr King, which is arguably more powerful).
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The difference between. Construct/Master construct and the summon scrolls is that the golem is fully under the casters control while the other things are decidedly not.
 
Graham Wolsey said:
It was not a golem suit, just a player that played the construct for them in the same way anyone would take a shift.

No PC levels but it was immune to fire damage so a field battle against fire elementals became trivialized. It was almost immune to chaos, death, and several other effects in another battle that made it much better than any other combatant on the field.
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.....Okay, sure, in that single fight that Construct was clearly designed to win. But unless your entire campaign is about beating down Fire elementals, I don't see that this really means that there's a problem with the Construct scrolls themselves.

Edit: TL;DR, your caster built a Fire-elemental killer and...it did exactly what it was supposed to do.
 
Draven said:
In theory, you could build a 60 point Master Construct with a lot of immunities....but that Construct is going to be fragile as all get out.

And they can't be immune to Eldritch Force (I don't think). Auto-reflect can be annoying, but a single Reflect Magic back and you can Subjugate them easily.
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A Mercury Golem (or Quicksilver Soldier depending on chapter?), created by the Construct ritual, is Immune to Flame, Ice, Stone, Binding, Healed by Lightning, 4 Strength, 200 Body, and 5(?) Phases per day. In addition to Construct Immunities (Death, Paralysis, Command, Necromancy). That is much better than any Master Construct and was the basis for Constructs to no longer be able to be Spirit Stored into.

Graham Wolsey said:
It was not a golem suit, just a player that played the construct for them in the same way anyone would take a shift.

No PC levels but it was immune to fire damage so a field battle against fire elementals became trivialized. It was almost immune to chaos, death, and several other effects in another battle that made it much better than any other combatant on the field.
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A Flame Elemental sounds the same. It seems like you are advocating for just getting rid of "pet" rituals in general. A well-timed and tactically summoned "pet" can trivialize combat many times, but it costs resources to do so and, if you aren't careful, that pet can die quickly.
 
A single celestial scroll that trivialized a field battle is way too good. Can you name any Rogue or Fighter ability that does that? Maaaaybe alchemy.
 
I'd forgotten that the Mercury golem had that many immunities. Lord.

Still subject to taking weapon damage, though I know that most elementals generally only have claws (and thus Flame damage in this case).

Give feedback to Plot. It would be unfortunate for the golem if more powerful elementals suddenly had the ability to throw Elemental Destroy (body).
 
Graham Wolsey said:
A single celestial scroll that trivialized a field battle is way too good. Can you name any Rogue or Fighter ability that does that? Maaaaybe alchemy.
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Earth also has Summon scrolls. Summon Magistarium Elemental, Summon Magical Creature, and Summon Undead (have fun with that!) can create pets that can swing the tide of battle.

Summon Magical Creature, for instance, gives the Satyr King as an option. Pay it enough and I am sure it could Greater Fey Curse that Big Bad to turn into a puppy.
 
...I could have been summoning Death elementals to do my dirty work this whole time? Damn it, why don't people tell me these things.
 
Samyania said:
...I could have been summoning Death elementals to do my dirty work this whole time? Damn it, why don't people tell me these things.
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It's weird when you answer your own question....
 
Your game must run those scrolls differently than ours. Summon scrolls don't create a pet like in WOW with a pet control bar. It creates a thinking being with motivations and goals that usually aren't to follow the casters wishes without question.

We have a cosmology with 24+ elemental factions, multiple fae courts, and also laws in place that control the use of most summoning scrolls (certainly including necromancy).
 
Depends on the arrangement met with what you are summoning. Sure, only Constructs are unthinking, but that is both a boon and hindrance. Sometimes you want a creature that can perform complex functions ... then you need an iron-clad arrangement.
 
Graham Wolsey said:
A single celestial scroll that trivialized a field battle is way too good. Can you name any Rogue or Fighter ability that does that? Maaaaybe alchemy.
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Even with Alchemy, trivializing a battle will cost a ton of treasure policy per battle, and a lot of the monster DB is no effect to alchemy. A QSS is expensive up front in terms of TP, but sticks around, and works on anything not immune to damage.
 
Yeah, at my own more modest level (220 build on my main), I'll be going deep into formal as well as a celestial Templar in .10, and may just go full Scholar instead because profs do not add enough damage for the build to really be a good investment when I can get a full suit of free Arcane that can't be DFM'd and some cloaks with that build instead.
 
Muir said:
Yeah, at my own more modest level (220 build on my main), I'll be going deep into formal as well as a celestial Templar in .10, and may just go full Scholar instead because profs do not add enough damage for the build to really be a good investment when I can get a full suit of free Arcane that can't be DFM'd and some cloaks with that build instead.
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Yeah I am having this debate atm too. I really like to melee, but as a templar I end up swinging 5 but my wand does 6 x90ish times. I am not even sure swinging five will feel any different then swinging 2 to be totally honest.
 
Tantarus said:
Yeah I am having this debate atm too. I really like to melee, but as a templar I end up swinging 5 but my wand does 6 x90ish times. I am not even sure swinging five will feel any different then swinging 2 to be totally honest.
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It doesn't to me right now, but that's with 1.3 era body bloat. It seems like it takes the same 10+ hits to knock something down at 2's or 5's.
 
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