Wylderkin racial choices

I have been corrected. A plot committee can require that you alter your character before visiting their chapter if they consider the choices you made unreasonable. Still, until this actually happens to someone, it is entirely theoretical. Plot teams can do lots of unreasonable things legitimately, but we trust them not to.

-MS

As the Head of Plot in OR, I have asked a player to alter their chosen racial. Once. It isn't just a theory. To their credit, that player was amazingly gracious about it and rolled with it (much appreciated), so good on them.

No, I won't give details, pretty sure doing so would give that person's identity away, which I have zero intention of doing.

As for Dodge and Resist Magic? *shrug* Not a big deal, imho. They are limited to one purchase of each, and Magic Items are a far, far, far, far, far, far, far greater problem with balance/power than Racial abilities.
 
Last edited:
No kin should EVER have gypsy curse as a racial.

And no racial should EVER be given based on back story or influence.

I believe that is the most power gaming thing I have ever heard. It just breaks the game and it's not right.

I like how the rule book even states how racials should be given.

A good rule of thumb is if anyone has to ask you why you have that racial (without total ignorance of the animal) then something is seriously wrong. People who are doing this is why kin are not being taken serious in some chapters and are seen as a "customer service" race.
 
With that attitude, I sincerely hope you never end up on a plot team. I don't mean this to be insulting. I say this because plot teams need to be more adaptable than that. When I spoke of the night that my plot team discussed Wylderkin racials, the reason we had that discussion was because we were trying to creatively and reasonably come up with just about any combination. It was a thought exercise to help the team become better at thinking outside the box.

I fully understand and respect that you have strong feelings about Wylderkin. But I think you should step back a little and try to think about it from a less passionate perspective, and definitely from a less rigid perspective.

As for you Gypsy Curse statement, suffice it to say I disagree. Personally, I would see completely legitimate justifications for:
Gypsy Moth (yes, because of the name)
Monkey (throwing poo and screaming are thematically similar to cursing)
Owl (an owl's hoot is superstitiously considered an omen of death)
Crow (a creature often associated with ill omens)

-MS
 
A good rule of thumb is if anyone has to ask you why you have that racial (without total ignorance of the animal) then something is seriously wrong. People who are doing this is why kin are not being taken serious in some chapters and are seen as a "customer service" race.

Personally, I would bet that there is at least one player of Alliance who is familiar with Coyotes that would think that your two racial skills are unreasonable. That is the problem with your rule of thumb. You have made a rule of thumb where even one objection is enough to disqualify a choice.

-MS
 
No kin should EVER have gypsy curse as a racial.

And no racial should EVER be given based on back story or influence.

No offense, but that's not your call to make. This is not a game of such absolutes.

I believe that is the most power gaming thing I have ever heard. It just breaks the game and it's not right.

There is no combination of racial skills that breaks this game more than the prevalence of certain magic items. There are other aspects to our rules that are -far- more broken. It is no more power gaming to select skills that are complimentary to the goals of the player than it is to make a High Orc Fighter.

More importantly, the implication that a player shouldn't pick a race for combat effectiveness is insulting. A player picks a race because they want to have fun with that race. The idea they should be inherently handicapped to make your game more immersive is selfish.


A good rule of thumb is if anyone has to ask you why you have that racial (without total ignorance of the animal) then something is seriously wrong. People who are doing this is why kin are not being taken serious in some chapters and are seen as a "customer service" race.

If you have to ask me why, frankly, it's none of your OOG business why I have that racial. If you want to ask me IG, I -may- provide you background information as to the tendencies of my people, but honestly, if I feel the -player- is going to judge my kyn, I have absolutely no problem just ignoring them, because that's rude, elitist, and we deserve better treatment.
 
She does have a backhanded point, though, in that Gypsy Curse shouldn't be a racial ability any more than the Stone Elf and Biata mental abilities are.
 
So submit it to an owner to change the rule.

While its in the ARB, it's available to players, and if they select it for RP reasons, they certainly aren't powergaming.
 
Let's face it. kin are treated like a customer service race. I've heard it time and time again. And it is sad. Probably because we are loop holing the book and making any combo of racials justifiable. What's next? Allowing dwarves to not have beards? Orcs with no tusks? I mean why not. Orc can use back story to have busted tusks. And a dwarf can now use a backstory to have no beard. Hell, why not a biata whose so nervous they pluck their feathers?

It is power gaming to get away with doing minimal work to get a combo racial you want and justify it with whatever reasoning you feel like making. Yes, it absolutely is. And to have gypsy curse is totally busted for kin. And just like muir stated, just like they shouldn't have mind abilities.

As for me being a plot team, yeah I'm too busy with my career to even consider doing that. Also, how would my opinion on wylderkin even be put into consideration on how I write plot?thats why there is several members on a plot team. Maybe the fact that I have passion for this, would mean I would have passion for the material of the game. And I mean that with no disrespect.

I feel wylderkin need to go through an entire revamp. Not just because of racials but with what species are allowed. Because I find it also wrong that some extinct animals are allowed and some are not. And that opens a whole new door as well. Also people getting away with minimal costuming/face paint and not knowing in the dark what that person is. And chapters let this slide all the time. I don't think I have ever even seen a racial marshal in my entire life
 
I'm not sure in what aspect a full makeup race would ever qualify as 'minimal costuming'...
 
Your argument seems to actually be two separate arguments that you're trying to back with the same logic.

Your arguments:

1) People should phys-rep their race better. People don't, but don't get called out for it because of customer service.
My Response: Sure, but that's your chapter's decision not to do so. People get called out here in Oregon and Seattle chapters for it. A couple years ago, we made a pretty serious issue about it, over several games. Warnings were given out. Players were told to go back to their cabin and fix it. It's not an issue anymore. If your chapter isn't holding their players to repping their races, then that is a failure on your chapter, not the rules, or the Alliance.

2) Players should pick racials that make sense to the animal. Picking a race...wait...actually, you made -absolutely no argument for why players can't choose racial skills that are effective for the RP you want.-

My Response: You went into an assumptive declaration that players who choose good racials -are doing minimum work to rep their race.- This is a bad, bad, terrible argument, because there are plenty of players who rep their kyn well -and have racials that are highly effective for their desired playstyle.-

Yeah. I pretty much can't argue with you on this any further, because it's pretty evident you feel that Kyn players, more often than not, are lazy costumers just looking for cool skillz.
 
Let's face it. kin are treated like a customer service race. I've heard it time and time again. And it is sad. Probably because we are loop holing the book and making any combo of racials justifiable. What's next? Allowing dwarves to not have beards? Orcs with no tusks? I mean why not. Orc can use back story to have busted tusks. And a dwarf can now use a backstory to have no beard. Hell, why not a biata whose so nervous they pluck their feathers?

It is power gaming to get away with doing minimal work to get a combo racial you want and justify it with whatever reasoning you feel like making. Yes, it absolutely is. And to have gypsy curse is totally busted for kin. And just like muir stated, just like they shouldn't have mind abilities.

As for me being a plot team, yeah I'm too busy with my career to even consider doing that. Also, how would my opinion on wylderkin even be put into consideration on how I write plot?thats why there is several members on a plot team. Maybe the fact that I have passion for this, would mean I would have passion for the material of the game. And I mean that with no disrespect.

I feel wylderkin need to go through an entire revamp. Not just because of racials but with what species are allowed. Because I find it also wrong that some extinct animals are allowed and some are not. And that opens a whole new door as well. Also people getting away with minimal costuming/face paint and not knowing in the dark what that person is. And chapters let this slide all the time. I don't think I have ever even seen a racial marshal in my entire life

Hi. You've just met a marshal and plot member who calls people out when they're not repping their race. Pleased to meet you.

That said, you want to know what races I've had to call out? Elf, Orc, and Dryad. Since I've been a marshal, I haven't had to call out a single kyn on makeup requirements. As a group, the kyn in the chapters I play are the most immersive and costume intense group of players. This may be different where you play MissDragGun, but that is an issue with those players, not the Wilderkyn race as a whole.
 
You don't seem to understand the difference between rules and guidelines. The rules state that you must wear the racial makeup of your race. You can make adjustments within reason (a fake goatee and a fake ZZ Top beard are both acceptable), but you still have to wear the makeup. The rules state that you must choose two racial abilities (mental abilities are NOT permitted per rules). The rules then provide GUIDELINES to choosing those abilities. These guidelines are that you should try to pick two abilities that make sense for the animal type.

Keep in mind, there isn't a single creature in nature that can Resist Command yet the example, in the book, lists an owl having Resist Command. Other examples are similar (just because a polar bear is resistant to cold, that doesn't make sense that one could resist fire, yet the example is just Resist Elements). The very idea of Wylderkin is that they are conceptually representative of their animal type.

As for your costuming complaint, Evan responded well (kudos), but I will support him. You are effectively claiming that Wylderkin players are the sole players that costume poorly. Lots of player costume poorly (for various reasons from lack of caring to lack of funds). Wylderkin players aren't unique this way. If anything, they tend to be some of the BEST costumers in the game, and you insult them (and arguably yourself) claiming otherwise. If you see someone in a bad Wylderkin costume, point it out to a marshall, or if you know the person well enough, talk to them about it in a friendly manner. But, try to be empathetic about it, because you will have egg on your face if that costume is the best they can afford on a limited budget.

Also, I am adding Skunk to my list of animals that Gypsy Curse feels thematically appropriate for.

-MS
 
Wylderkin are fine as is. They should open it to extinct and fantasy animals. Story, story, story. What racials people have shouldn't even be a big concern. The roleplay, the story, should trump anything mechanical. At the same time, too much RP of a Kin becomes silly and unreasonable. RP wise, there should be some guidelines and leeway with it, but it shouldn't be extreme.

Costuming wise, as long as they look like the animal, like from a distance, and close up similar, they're fine. Even if it is minimalistic. Dogkin with a black nose, brown face, and a white circle around the eye? Looks like a dog to me.

I just can't agree to having the costume be over the top or perfect at all - this is a LARP, not a cosplay thing. Further, not everyone has the skill or money to go nuts with that. The game should be accessible to all. I suck at makeup. If it wasn't for my wife, I would look like this awful mishmash of brown and white making me look like a bus hit me on the way in. Really I just would not be portraying a wylderkin, cause I can't do the makeup. Do the furred masks look better? Heck yes. But should it be required? Heck no. I've seen plenty of people who did minimal makeup with no prosthetics that I can look at and go "Thats a Fox!" or whatever kin they are. Requiring way more seems unreasonable and elitist to me.

The whole concept of "Balance" with costuming is right out - cause of the double cost for Read/Write and read magic. The mechanics are balanced. It doesn't need to be "I costume more, so I get benefits more" in my view, and by the rulebook, that doesn't seem to be the case either.
 
People already often seem to feel compelled to play snowflakey breeds wich is why I never want to see this freely opened up for fantasy or extinct species- theres plenty to choose from as it is. Individual specialness based on these two items (extinct and fantasy as a gimmick) is a cry for attention more than it is an addition to the game world or a story as a whole.

But then I lean more towards cohesive world building and am extremely picky about such things.
 
Last edited:
I've held back watching this discussion and enjoyed it, but I'll put in my 3 cents or so. First I don't think I've seen any points that were completely invalid, I have seen some moderate/bad kin costuming and it's up to each staff to determine if it's laziness/new player lack of knowledge and to resolve the issue. (I'll approach a long term player differently than I will the new guy whose costume consists of bear ears he got from party city.) In general I feel the majority of kin I see have put real time and effort into their costuming, and generally there is no racial combo that is inherently so over the top as to be game breaking.

As to power gaming, totally can be a thing, my Turtlekin has resist Elements and Resist Bindings (10 of each) and is a templar. If you are going to the island of firebreathing spiders, he's your guy. On the flip side that's 70 build in resists plus the read/write doubling penalty. So he's 4 profs lower (6s instead of 10s) or the majority of 3 more columns of magic.

As to Gypsy Curse, it's always been more of a potential issue than practical one here in the Midwest (your local mileage may vary) My Rabbitkin has it, (Justified by the idea of Rabbits having large family like gathers, plus being reknown for their "luck" affecting things) He's had it for the entirety of the character, has yet to use it (he doesn't know he can yet) and it wasn't to power game, it's part of that's character's story (I fully expect to likely resurrect the first time it comes out at the least)

Ultimately the rules as written say that Kin can buy any skill that has a cost associated with it. It also recognizes that local plot needs to be consulted and approve your picks when you make the character, it always bothers me when any player, plot, or staff says that a kin should NEVER have a skill that is explicitly allowed by the rulebook.

I think we can all take a step back sometimes when looking at these things and consider does this really affect me? Honestly how big of a deal is it, really, in your Larping life that the guy playing a Slothkin called a dodge and you think it was likely a racial instead of a skill? Or the Mousekin to your right is swinging for 4 instead of 3 their second game because their racial prof reduced the skill that 5 points to let them power game a bit?
 
Last edited:
Wylderkin are fine as is. They should open it to extinct and fantasy animals. Story, story, story. What racials people have shouldn't even be a big concern. The roleplay, the story, should trump anything mechanical.

I cannot disagree with you more on the topic of fantasy animals being allowed (as far as I am aware, extinct animals are allowed; I've never disallowed an animal kyn that is extinct, anyway).

Part of my reasoning for disagreeing with you is one of your points in favor of it: Story.

Like it or not, Fantasy animals exist in our game - from Griffins to Dragons, and many things in between.

These creatures have decades of history and story that revolve around them, and control unprecedented power in and around the world of Fortannis and its many lands. When a player is allowed to be a "dragon-kin"*, they will (rightfully or not) expect to have some kind of special relationship with their namesake, which potentially leads to a PC having access to things they should not. No level 1 PC should EVER feel they have a special connection with a dragon just because they are a "dragon-kin"; and as a Plot person, I HAVE had to curtail that crap from brand new players who either skimmed past that section of the book, or were willfully ignorant of it. Because more often than not, players looking for that sort of character are looking to game the system and powergame because they know that Dragons offer something special to the story and to the world, and just being associated it gives them an advantage over other players (not just characters).

I think that the purpose and spirit behind disallowing "fantasy" creatures is to ensure both racial AND *story* balance. Just like a character can't be a Prince or Princess with direct access to their Father's 60-Ritual Artifact Sword called "Stupid Concept From The Start" which is famous far and wide as the most powerful item in all of Fortannis, players should not be allowed to be some kind of distant cousin to some of the most powerful creatures Fortannis has ever seen. Just no.




*I bring up Dragon-kin because that is by far and away the "mythical" Kin most often asked about in my experience.
 
Last edited:
In my view, were playing in a fantasy game. More options = more creativity. I can get behind story balance, but I question if it's truly an issue. I see what you're getting at with the Prince/Princess and "Stupid Concept Magic Sword", but I think it may be an apples and oranges comparison - maybe.

The special relationship thing is bunk, Humans don't have a special relationship with monkeys. Speaking of, hopefully one day a human pisses my PC off enough to call them a monkey kin.
 
I honestly go back and forth on extinct animals. I want (SO BAD) to make a stegosaur-kin, but I can't justify how to roleplay it because we have no idea what it's actual behaviors were. That's saying nothing of the headache I would be giving my local plot team by forcing them to integrate something into the world that the PCs have never encountered and NPCs have never referenced. (It could be as simple as "there are weird lizardmen living in this swamp way out on the map," but at the end of the day I'd rather build something using the world as it exists so I can immerse myself rather than play something bonkers and have to have the other players deal with my weirdo.
 
People already often seem to feel compelled to play snowflakey breeds wich is why I never want to see this freely opened up for fantasy or extinct species- theres plenty to choose from as it is. Individual specialness based on these two items (extinct and fantasy as a gimmick) is a cry for attention more than it is an addition to the game world or a story as a whole.

But then I lean more towards cohesive world building and am extremely picky about such things.

I don't think the game needs "mystical-creature" Kyn. That's not that I don't think players wouldn't have a great time with it. It's mostly because I think that a point could be reached where it becomes less about the development of the character and more about where they came from. I mean, let's be honest. A Fox-kyn, a Raccoon-kyn, and a Crow-kyn all walk into a bar...but nobody gives a crap, because Chimera-kyn is there and OMGHEHASTHREEHEADSAND...ehhh...eventually, it starts to step on the toes of the types of beings that Plot brings to the table to make us feel like we're in a fantastic world.
 
Back
Top