If you sell it IG should it be stealable?

MaxIrons said:
What you're saying is something that can be done, right now. There is a player that sells tea in our chapter. If I rolled in and just started giving away tea I would undercut this person, and this person's character... in the system that exists now. The only difference in what I propose is that the tea salesman would still have tea tags that he could Merchant back at cost or sell after dealing with the business interloper.

I'm going to quote Bryan here as to why this is an issue, he summed it up pretty nicely. I understand that you don't see it as such, but some people do. Can you at least see where we're coming from?
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First... it's not only something that can be done, it sadly is being done. I realized as I typed it my PC does it. I'd been freely giving away tea for quite some time, but a new tavern keeper is in my town who also sells tea. They possibly sell a different sort of tea then the free tea that I give away, but the fact remains I'm undercutting their business... I'm not doing it maliciously, I've been giving away free tea longer (many years) than I believe that Tavern keep pc has existed.

I've read those points before, but will answer them here...

1) If you see $1 for a sword tag is the same as a brownie for 2 silver, then we're going to have to agree to disagree on the whole thing. I see it as turning OOG money into a non game item, brining it to game and adding to the game experience by exchanging it for other non game items OR game items, depending on the agreement I make with another player. If you don't see it that way too... oh well, to each their own.

2) If chapters gave out gobbies and rewards at the same rate that other players handed over coin for the same items then more would be going to the chapters, fact is they don't. Also, you're removing the fun some players get being the merchant IG as opposed to dropping off a case of water and getting a sword tag behind the scenes.

3) Stealabiltiy. I've covered this one to death already, but the cliff notes is: please keep your hands to my Game items only. I agree that having non-game-items creates an currency of sorts of non game items... it's part of the compromise I discussed here.

4) Sounds like we both agree people trading service for IG items is A-OK. Good times.

As he said our IG economy is far from perfect... as long as I can turn OOG money into gobbies of any form, and turn those gobbies into IG advantage, there will be this problem... punishing people who add to the IG environment by providing sales of food and baubles is not in MY idea of the game I want to play and support.


I TOTALLY see where you're coming from. In fact there have been times that I agreed with you. Until I realized that cash for gobbies keeps games afloat. Once I saw that, and saw the benefits our kind benefactors were getting for supporting our game, I stopped caring as much about that side of it. I've been attending games for over 12 years. I think the ones with merchants going around selling wares for coin have a better IG atmosphere then those that don't. I don't always buy, in fact I can be pretty stingy with my IG coin (far more stingy then I am with my OOG dollars) but I like the fact that people are there adding to my game experience. Also, most games don't provide "lunch" just breakfast and dinner, if that's even provided at all, so those players providing my lunch for IG coin, save me the trouble of coming up with a way to get my own food. It also helped me out when I was a less rich college student and person just out of college. It was more of a hardship to buy real food then use fake money to get the same food from others. Incidental bonus, but still one.

To summarize, I do see your side, I also happen to disagree with it (explained here and also above). The game system we use is a compromise. I'd rather no theft, some people like ALL THEFT OF ALL THINGS, and we land somewhere in between. Call it a compromise and its been working great for the decade+ I've been playing.
 
So, if we're talking about stealing a tag and not the phys-rep {including juice and brownies}, then that sounds like the best solution for a messy problem. Even with printing your own tags, though, I can still see this being a chapter/logistics nightmare.

The current system is a bit broken, but it works. And it doesn't force anyone giving away their food/pants to feel like they're undercutting someone who is "legitimately" merchanting those items.

On that note, would bringing my own food be just as frowned upon or be considered undercutting the person selling meals for ig coin? Why wouldn't I have to tag that in the same way? If I do give away tea, does that give the merchant the right to tell me I can't give it away because I am hurting his ig business?

I still don't see how it actually adds to the game experience, instead I see it adding a lot of headaches and gray areas to something that's currently pretty cut and dry.
 
Again, though, we're talking about stealing not the in-game economy. So we're currently talking about creating all these gray areas and headaches just so someone can steal my stuff....
 
Exactly... almost all of the great area is around because Theft is around. Funny that, people stealing things creates problems. Yes I know it's part of the game, I've done it, it can be fun, but that doesn't change the fact that it can create real problems.

I just don't understand this "lets print out tags for the sake of having tags so we can steal" idea. It made sense when it was an OOG tax that I had to pay to get the merchanting item IG (even though I disagreed with it)... once dealing with logistics was over, I just don't understand it... I'm printing out a worthless tag to give people permission steal a thing I don't even really want them to steal anyways? No thank you.

As far as me "wrecking a merchants business"... not really. I'm sure she does fine because she sells foodstuffs that I do not. I've even bought her stuff before. No hard feelings ever intended... but we're talking about non-game-items for real coin (or for free from me) which is entirely based off of whatever people want to pay for it anyway. So driving up (or down) the prices doesn't matter. Same with ritual scroll evaluations. People ask my PC all the time what they are worth (I'm a ritualist I tend to be a good starting point) and I always have to end my valuation with "but really, it's worth whatever you can get for it, sometimes much more sometimes less"

The main difference is my brownie is not a whispering wind or a preserve duration... but the spot market is the same.

As far as the idea of "a competitor buys all the soda's and sells them at a markup"... seen it happen, kinda hilarious... people still bought the marked up booze, and first salesman got paid their asking price for all booze they brought to game, everybody won, and it was funny, so that's a plus.
 
If that's it, I'm going to open an IG snack shack and make a fortune selling untagged, unvalued, unstealable sodas and fritos.
 
Do it! It's a great way to drum up cash. Players will love your food, and you will be donating your time and OOG dollars to make everybody's game better. Charge what they're willing to pay. Prices skyrocket on hot summer days!

I mean it too... being a merchant and making food can be hard work so thank you for your service to the game, enjoy your gold.
 
I can even build a trapped coin box, and leave it unattended without having to worry about anyone jacking my product. Then I don't need to put any time into the game at all for my free IG gold. Much better than donating directly to the game.
 
Okay, not sure why some people are still going in circles on this. I have never had an issue with bringing food to an event to sell for in-game money only, and that's around 25 years now. If you bring in food to sell in-game and it is left alone in an in-game area and someone comes along and takes it. Deal with it!! If you bring in food to eat yourself and someone takes it, that's a problem. If you have a hard time figuring out the difference then you shouldn't be "stealing" food, snacks or whatever.

I really can't see what the issue is here.

Wait is the problem an in-game economy? There never has been a hard fast economy in this game, that is the same though all the chapters!!

The only way to deal with this would be on a LOCAL level, not a NATIONAL level. Or if you REALLY feel strongly about this submit it to your local chapter and have them submit it to the Owners and ARC.

Matt K.
 
Sita said:
On that note, would bringing my own food be just as frowned upon or be considered undercutting the person selling meals for ig coin? Why wouldn't I have to tag that in the same way? If I do give away tea, does that give the merchant the right to tell me I can't give it away because I am hurting his ig business?
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Our tea merchant is well within his rights, right now, to tell you IG that you can't give away your tea because it hurts his IG business. What he couldn't do in either situation is tell you that you couldn't do it OOG anymore than our local Master Blacksmith can tell you you can't give away 40pt Armor Tags OOG.
 
Alternately, I could leave the food out, price it, and have players find and pay me directly without having to worry about my coin being stolen or managing a table or stand.
 
@Keegan, sure you could put a Trapped coin box in an in-game area. Just remember that there needs to be a Trap card in there and a marshal to watch over it, when someone comes along and disarms your Trapped coin box and then takes any Coin and the Trap card with them. :)

also leaving it unattended would lead to people choosing whether or not to pay you...
 
He does. And Amory can tell him to kindly beg off. The RP would be interesting, and I'm pretty sure that would create the most adorable IG "but... but my feelings" staring contest ever ~.^

On that note, though, adding tags wouldn't change this scenario at all. It would just mean that Amory could steal all his tea, then give it away. Because then I'm not competing ^.^

{please note: I'm pretty sure Amory is physically incapable of stealing... so no worries.}
 
Sheakhan said:
If that's it, I'm going to open an IG snack shack and make a fortune selling untagged, unvalued, unstealable sodas and fritos.
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Please ensure that these items as in-period looking as possible. Nothing shits on the in-game atmosphere more than uncovered soda cans and product wrappers proudly proclaiming their brand's name.

Further, you'll likely want to attend to them as helpful "kitchen gnomes" may just put your goods away in the walk-in/pantry to avoid clutter and having the tavern look like a pig pen, or to avoid having anachronistic items floating around in an in-game area (especially unattended food/drink items).
 
After having watched this post for a while, I would like to finally give a position regarding it.

In Alliance, we have various rules that cover the complexities of our game. Over time, sometimes these rules shift and change in order to account for eventual changing culture. Sometimes questions like this surge every x amount of years, where a newer player comes in and wonders 'why' about a lot of our choices in ruleset.

However, there are base concepts that flow in our game that have been around for years. One of these (and in my opinion one of the most important) is the 'Spirit of the Rules/Good Sportsmanship' concept.

Spirit of the rules/Good Sportsmanship can mean a multitude of different things to different people. However, at the alliance base are some core principles:

"Always treat other players with respect and dignity."
"Let's make the game fun for each other as much as possible."
"Just because you can, does not mean you should."

Some of these principles are quotes not only from owners, but from Mike Ventrella himself. This is the core of our game. Which means that questions from new players at times fall into these core principles. Please consider this to be among them.

Thanks,
Alison Buntemeyer
Alliance Chair
 
This discussion spilled over into Facebook, and a few people and I actually had a productive internet conversation. (Felt like winning the lottery - so rare!)

Anyway, the conclusion that I came to is that personally, I don't consider stealing "non-game but IG" items that are being sold for money to be a "**** move," since I wouldn't feel OOG bad if it happened to one of my characters. However, many players do consider it a Big Deal and would be OOG upset, so I think it's best just not to do it at all.
 
Great discussion. So here's the fix I've come up with:

If all items with IG value are tagged, then there won't be any problems discerning what's stealable. No tag, not stealable. No tag, can't be sold. Phys rep can be returned and they can't be sold, until tagged. I think this system could further support non-combat players who wish to be merchants and would control the insane inflation. "That *insert food thing here* is worth 10x a long sword???" won't be a thing. Setting a standard table of prices isn't nearly as daunting of a task as it may seems. You can do broad categories so every specific thing isn't listed. Food items = X, meal = X, clothing = X, etc. A simple blank "merchandise" tag can be made and players can fill in what they have, logistics uses a list to assign value and signs off. The percentage of players who do sell OOG things, is pretty low, so it's not going to add a ton of work. If it's something with great OOG value, then the merchant can make a deal with the person purchasing the item on an OOG level.

Thoughts?
 
But I don't see why the games needs this....as I have said before, I have never had a problem with selling real food for Fake money...I have gotten "rolled" once for the food I was selling, but hey I was walking though the woods by myself..$hi+ happens and that's in the last 24+ years...

If Chapters want to do this on a Local level, cool! Just make sure that it's posted so I know where not to bring food with me, not that I travel much out of the EC.

We have a saying Rule #3 Don't be a Di<k!
As Ali said, good Sportsmanship! !!

Matt K.
 
I have to ask, Is this really a problem that needs addressing? The selling of food for IG coin is one of the few uses for gold. Selling food/craft items is one of the ways for people not interested in combat to join the game in a quick way and make a niche for themselves.

Is the selling of OOG bought food really hurting the game in a tangible way? And even if it is. Does that harm out way the benefits of giving money more value via a way to spend it? Giving the RP crowd a way to make money and such?

I know my game experience would certainly be hurt if many of these suggested rules went into affect and drove some of the current food vendors away.

There are plenty of things that cause a immersion break to happen. Untagged food is hardly the worst offender if it can even be considered one.
 
I don't think it's a terrible idea, and I'd be interested to see how it changes things from a merchanting standpoint. I'd also really think there would need to be a National standard put in place, for tags and for cost of merchanted OOG items. But it still leaves a few questions in my mind.

I would still be a bit wary in regards to food and theft, it's one that could be easily abused by the right player. "Oops, I didn't know your cookies weren't being sold" I would also wonder how that would change giving away things in character, then either getting paid later or getting a tip for my generosity. Would I then need to get a tag for that item? Would the act of giving away something be then frowned upon as outside the rules? And what about services vs. physical items? Massage is a really good example. Would that stop being allowed if it was something bei9ng merchanted that could not have a physical tag applied to the cost?

I think players need to stop paying ridiculous prices for OOG goods. If more characters told the merchant selling a cookie for a gold that the price was outrageous and they will simply go without the cookie, the price will either adjust, or they'll stop bringing cookies.
 
Sita said:
I think players need to stop paying ridiculous prices for OOG goods. If more characters told the merchant selling a cookie for a gold that the price was outrageous and they will simply go without the cookie, the price will either adjust, or they'll stop bringing cookies.
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I think that people are willing to pay a gold for a treat or food is a sign that the economy is bad or almost not existent. Money has that little value because there is not much to buy with it. If anything this is a sign that having people sell oog foods helps buy giving people something to buy, thereby giving their money value. Players fast get to a point where they don't need to replace much gear and they can either start saving for magic items/formal scrolls that tend to be very pricy or buy some food/snacks. Let them have cookies and shakes, I say!
 
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