[0.9] Paragon Paths

Ruki

Scholar
While this is true, a good argument could be made that Rogues and Fighters need extra power to replace the massive nerfs they have received through the changes to scaling.
That is a good way of looking at it.

The way I choose to look at it though is it gives rogues and fighters an end game goal, since they don't get anything like high magic.
 

Graham Wolsey

Scholar
Denver Staff
Marshal
Another thing that should be considered is how does it make a person powerful?

If it increases their damage or gives them the ability to win a fight by themselves, I think it is bad power creep.

If it gives them the ability to work better with a group of people by removing take outs that have removed another player's ability to have fun in a combat by healing, cleansing, or strengthening them with a magic weapon so they can participate, then I'm in favor of "power creep" in those areas.
 
I play a scout so I immediately went to the scout classes (I'll try looking at them all when I have more time).

I noticed something that I highly object to. Scouts (and other split classes) require an even split to access paragon classes. In return, at higher paragon levels, you need to have spent less total XP, but that still seems decidedly unfair at earlier levels. This is, in my opinion, most notable at the 100XP mark. Single classes can easily take the paragon abilities at 100XP (well 110 total). Split classes, though, usually don't have an even split at 100XP, because it is really hard to be mechanically effective if you split evenly that early in a character's progression. Heck, even at later levels, few split class characters are even splits (usually closer to 40/60). I propose that the XP cost for level for a split class should 100XP total in the two class skills with minimum 40 in each and that later levels should be written similarly.

-MS
 
Looking at Duelist.... Can somebody explain the first ability to me because I am absolutely unsure how it would affect my Scout.

My Scout is primarily an archer. I have 6 backstabs and 4 profs, which means I shoot for 15 damage (6 + 6 + 3). I honestly can't figure out how much damage I would do with my bow against a chosen foe. By one reading, I deal 23 damage (6 doubled + 4 doubled + 3). By another reading, I deal 27 damage (6 doubled + 6 doubled + 3). The first reading treats the bonus of both backstabs and profs as 1 (because it is a ranged weapon) and then doubles them. The second reading treats the bonus of backstabs and profs as 12 (total) when using a bow and then doubles that number. I think it is the first, but the wording is far from clear.

Similarly, I think that when I attacked a chosen foe from behind with my short sword, the damage would increase from the normal 18 to 26.

Anyone certain?

-MS
 
Hmm... I'll directly quote it so everyone know what we're talking about without having to open the document, then give my interpretation (which is, of course, subject to correction).
Duelist said:
At any time, the Duelist may choose to "deactivate" all Weapon Proficiencies, Backstabs, Back Attacks and Critical Attacks for 10 minutes. If they do so, they gain 1.5x (2x if using a two-handed weapon; this includes the normal two-handed weapon bonus) the bonus of the deactivated skills against a single target (the "Chosen Foe") during that 10 minutes. This effect may not be ended prematurely or retargeted during this 10 minute period, even if the Chosen Foe falls or leaves the field.
Given that it says "1.5/2x the BONUS", I would consider your second interpretation to be the correct one; you double the bonus provided by your Backstabs and Weapon Proficiencies, in this case from 6 each to 12 each, and your total damage should come to 27 against your Chosen Foe for 10 minutes.

Note that against any other target you should only deal 3 damage while this is in effect, but given that the ability doesn't specify a verbal to signify you're activating this ability or a specific way to identify a Chosen Foe, I'm not sure if you should simply call "27 Normal/Magic/[Whatever]" (and hope no one else takes the increased damage by accident) or not.
 

Muir

Fighter
I would assume it is like Race Reavers/Monster Slayers are now, where the attacking player is responsible for calling the correct damage to the relevant target.
 

Tayl

Newbie
2. I suspect you may be underestimating the opportunity cost to taking a Paragon Path. 50 Build qualifies you for a lot of options if you spend it in Fighting Skills or Rogue Skills. It grants you +1 Wand Damage and 13 packets if you spend it in Celestial skills. No matter which school you buy spells in, it qualifies you for more spell slots - especially those all-important 9th level ones - than any Paragon path does.
+1 Wand damage and 13 packets
Vs.
2 Celestial high magic points
Bane attuned element 1/d
cloak opposite element 1/d
75 spell attuned element
3 elemental banish /d
Potency: Attuned element 2/d
As well as ALL of the elementalist abilities. I do not think +1 wand damage and 13 packets compares even slightly to this.



OR for a specialist



+1 wand damage, 13 packets,

VS.


2/day Cloak school
1/day bane school
2/day Cloak school for anyone
1/day bane school for anyone
2/day absorb school
Being able to memorize spell slots 1 level down
5 armor every time you cast a spell of the school
Meditating the school at double speed
10x per day immediate rethrow on missed spells of that school



These things do not seem comparable even slightly.


I do not disagree with paragon paths, but they are not currently an alternative. In their current form they give so much power to a character that it is objectively weaker to not take a paragon path.

Perhaps paragon paths should be special, and require specific teachers and in game action to begin, and rank up.
 

A.mungo

Artisan
Alliance Rules
Marshal
Duelist- LVL1
A second question about Duelist is Does disabling my back attacks and crit attacks mean that I get the bonus for currently active ones, or do I get the bonus for all back and crit attacks available to me. When no longer disabled are they considered expended? If they have to be active and become disabled, if I end my chosen foe early are they still active as a timer? Also if they have to be active to be disabled, then can I just activate a second set since I am no longer gaining the benefit from the crit and back attacks?

Which one of these are most correct, or correct at all?
I have 3 profs, 5 backstabs, 20 Crit attacks and 20 Back attacks

A. I activate nothing but chosen foe, I now shoot a bow for 98 normal a shot against the chosen foe, and 3 against everyone else, and cannot activate any more crit/back attacks
B. I activate 10 crit attacks, and 10 back attacks. I then activate chosen foe I now shoot a bow for 76 normal a shot against the chosen foe, and 3 against everyone else
C. I activate 10 crit attacks, and 10 back attacks. I then activate chosen foe, then I activate the other 10 crit and back attacks. I now shoot a bow for 96 normal a shot against the chosen foe, and 23 against everyone else (for 10 minutes)


Sniper- LVL5
I have 7 Improved assassinates, 10 back attacks, and 10 assassinates. Every three seconds I can shoot for 200 massive?

Artisan Paragon Classes - Do the items in Craft and Trade count towards the requirements (craftsman for example) or is it only PP bearing skills that count for the minimums.

Secondarily, any thoughts to adding hybrid crafting trees to encourage more crafting in the system?
50/50 - 60/60 - 70/70 - 90/90 - 100/100 (or something along those lines?)
Rogue/Crafting Skills (Alchemy/Create Trap) - Disabler would have been perfect for a split build requirement here
Fighter/Crafting Skills (Blacksmith)
Scholar/Crafting Skills (Potion/Scroll Making)
 

Muir

Fighter
Yeah, even for a scholar, 50 XP is just 2 columns. 1.75 for a spellsword.

For a fighter, by the time you reach 300+ build, buying your 8th Proficiency costs 36 XP.

These Paths seem like they may be over-statted for the build equivalency, given the new system's diminishing returns.
 

Polare

Count
Duelist- LVL1
A second question about Duelist is Does disabling my back attacks and crit attacks mean that I get the bonus for currently active ones, or do I get the bonus for all back and crit attacks available to me. When no longer disabled are they considered expended? If they have to be active and become disabled, if I end my chosen foe early are they still active as a timer? Also if they have to be active to be disabled, then can I just activate a second set since I am no longer gaining the benefit from the crit and back attacks?

Which one of these are most correct, or correct at all?
I have 3 profs, 5 backstabs, 20 Crit attacks and 20 Back attacks

A. I activate nothing but chosen foe, I now shoot a bow for 98 normal a shot against the chosen foe, and 3 against everyone else, and cannot activate any more crit/back attacks
B. I activate 10 crit attacks, and 10 back attacks. I then activate chosen foe I now shoot a bow for 76 normal a shot against the chosen foe, and 3 against everyone else
C. I activate 10 crit attacks, and 10 back attacks. I then activate chosen foe, then I activate the other 10 crit and back attacks. I now shoot a bow for 96 normal a shot against the chosen foe, and 23 against everyone else (for 10 minutes)
Let's start from the first calculations. Assuming you're using a long bow, you are normally throwing for 3 + 10 [(3 profs x 1.5) + 5 backstabs] damage; i.e. 13. Keep that "10 extra damage from my skills" in mind, because that's the number referred to that gets "deactivated".

Without adding any Crit or Back Attacks, you pick a Chosen Foe. Now you're throwing 3 against anyone not your Chosen Foe, and 3 + 20 (double the 10 above, because it's a 2-handed weapon) against your Chosen Foe; i.e. 23.

Let's say you added a batch of 10 Crit Attacks. Without a Chosen Foe you're shooting for 23; with a Chosen Foe you're shooting for 43 (or 3 against other targets).
Let's say you added a batch of 10 Back Attacks as well as the Crit Attacks (so now you're spending 60!!! Build Points for 10 minutes of awesomeness). Without a Chosen Foe you're shooting for 33; with a Chosen Foe you're shooting for 63 (or 3 against other targets).

Another way to think of it: Take all the bonuses you get to the damage you're throwing. Double that number (or 1.5x if you're using a 1 handed weapon) against the Chosen Foe and remove it from all other targets. Once you activate this ability by picking a Chosen Foe, you're stuck throwing base weapon damage against everyone else for 10 minutes, even if you kill the Chosen Foe or they Spirit Recall or whatever.

Does that explain the intent better? This is the sort of example that we feel would fit well for the "tactical tips" noted in the Paragon Path packet.

Thanks,
Bryan

edit: note that my math is slightly off above; the "bonus damage" is actually 9 not 10 (so each example against the Chosen Foe should be 2 points less).
 
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Muir

Fighter
Bryan, I think your math has an error.

Weapon Proficiency* This allows the character to do a constant extra point of damage with one weapon for each time this skill is purchased. If using a twohanded weapon, the amount of damage is 1.5 (rounded down). This includes polearms, staffs, two handed blunt, two handed swords, bows, and crossbows. A Weapon Proficiency works with any weapon with which the character has the appropriate weapon skill. When attacking with a proficiency, you should merely call out the extra point(s) of damage as regular damage
3 x 1.5 = 4.5, rounded down to 4, and Backstabs are +1 per, so that should be 12 base damage (4 + 5 + 3).
 

Polare

Count
I do not think +1 wand damage and 13 packets compares even slightly to this.

(...)

These things do not seem comparable even slightly.
Please note that, when looking at those specific examples, you're leaving aside the primary purpose of spending that 50 build - two extra columns of spells. The "+1 wand damage and 13 packets" is a side effect of those two columns.

You may or may not feel that 2 columns (plus side effects) is worth

"2 Celestial high magic points
Bane attuned element 1/d
cloak opposite element 1/d
75 spell attuned element
3 elemental banish /d
Potency: Attuned element 2/d
As well as ALL of the elementalist abilities."

but it's rather a different discussion than comparing it to just the side effects of taking those columns.

Let's dig into your example a little more and talk about Elementalist from the perspective of damage output.

If you're looking at it through just the lens of damage, you're comparing 2 full columns of evocation (450 points of damage, not counting Storm spells) + 13 Wand charges + 1 Wand damage on each packet (not just those 13) vs better Elemental Burst High Magic efficiency, cast on-the-fly specific Evocation Bolts (but lower level, so you're actually *losing* damage by doing so), that same +1 Wand Damage (but only for one specific Element), and the per-day abilities, only one of which is actually damage-based. The other stuff doesn't actually increase your damage. Unless you get the most amazing Potencies off ever (a Ritual available outside of this Paragon Path, keep in mind) and have a *ton* of High Magic points sunk into Elemental Burst, you actually get more damage per Build Point by *not* taking Elementalist and just memorizing two more columns of Evocation.

This is the kind of comparison we want players to do and which we want to see in Playtesting. You get some really cool stuff from Elementalist - self-healing a few times per day, some effects you might not normally be able to do, better efficiency with Elemental Burst High Magic - but when you compare it to the raw output of just taking the columns it's not an automatic "hell yeah it's so much better".

-Bryan
 

Polare

Count
Bryan, I think your math has an error.

3 x 1.5 = 4.5, rounded down to 4, and Backstabs are +1 per, so that should be 12 base damage (4 + 5 + 3).
You are correct - tired brain was rounding up for the profs, not down. So the damage is actually two points less against the Chosen Foe in each of my examples. Good catch!
 

A.mungo

Artisan
Alliance Rules
Marshal
Bryan, I think your math has an error.



3 x 1.5 = 4.5, rounded down to 4, and Backstabs are +1 per, so that should be 12 base damage (4 + 5 + 3).
My math was off as well, but I understand the intention.

I think B. Would be the closest in that it only deactivates currently activated crit/back attacks (not counts all available crit/back attacks), but also does base weapon damage (i see now that i was doubling the base weapon and pre doubling my back attacks bonus).



Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk
 

Muir

Fighter
You are correct - tired brain was rounding up for the profs, not down. So the damage is actually two points less against the Chosen Foe in each of my examples. Good catch!
I know that feeling too well. Tired brain makes basic math a minefield for me too. :)
 
Shouldn't the crit attacks add 1.5 each because they are being used with a 2-h weapon or do they only add +1 each regardless of weapon type?

-MS
 

Avaran

Baron
Please note that, when looking at those specific examples, you're leaving aside the primary purpose of spending that 50 build - two extra columns of spells. The "+1 wand damage and 13 packets" is a side effect of those two columns.

You may or may not feel that 2 columns (plus side effects) is worth

"2 Celestial high magic points
Bane attuned element 1/d
cloak opposite element 1/d
75 spell attuned element
3 elemental banish /d
Potency: Attuned element 2/d
As well as ALL of the elementalist abilities."

but it's rather a different discussion than comparing it to just the side effects of taking those columns.

Let's dig into your example a little more and talk about Elementalist from the perspective of damage output.

If you're looking at it through just the lens of damage, you're comparing 2 full columns of evocation (450 points of damage, not counting Storm spells) + 13 Wand charges + 1 Wand damage on each packet (not just those 13) vs better Elemental Burst High Magic efficiency, cast on-the-fly specific Evocation Bolts (but lower level, so you're actually *losing* damage by doing so), that same +1 Wand Damage (but only for one specific Element), and the per-day abilities, only one of which is actually damage-based. The other stuff doesn't actually increase your damage. Unless you get the most amazing Potencies off ever (a Ritual available outside of this Paragon Path, keep in mind) and have a *ton* of High Magic points sunk into Elemental Burst, you actually get more damage per Build Point by *not* taking Elementalist and just memorizing two more columns of Evocation.

This is the kind of comparison we want players to do and which we want to see in Playtesting. You get some really cool stuff from Elementalist - self-healing a few times per day, some effects you might not normally be able to do, better efficiency with Elemental Burst High Magic - but when you compare it to the raw output of just taking the columns it's not an automatic "hell yeah it's so much better".

-Bryan


Bryan, I would absolutely love an example like this for high-level melee. I'm just not seeing how these are a choice/down-side at the moment (as a Fighter), and I need someone's expertise to point something like this out to me.

Thanks!

-Adam
 

EC-JP

Scholar
Alliance Rules
From a melee (fighter) perspective 50 build provides the following- 10 critical attacks, 1 parry, 1 slay, 1 improved slay, and 12 build for other skills like disarms, resolute, etc. It also provides the vast majority of the prerequisites for an Eviscerate, Riposte, and a second purchase of the above. While it may be easy to say that 50 build are "just a prof", the opportunity cost in terms of buying other abilities is not insignificant.

To put it in current perspective, a 4321 celestial pyramid and read magic is 47 build for a fighter. Some fighers have bought that, others haven't as the opportunity cost for buying skills that do not increase static damage or contribute to melee prowess is high.
 

Avaran

Baron
From a melee (fighter) perspective 50 build provides the following- 10 critical attacks, 1 parry, 1 slay, 1 improved slay, and 12 build for other skills like disarms, resolute, etc. It also provides the vast majority of the prerequisites for an Eviscerate, Riposte, and a second purchase of the above. While it may be easy to say that 50 build are "just a prof", the opportunity cost in terms of buying other abilities is not insignificant.
JP (of the East Coast),

Thanks for the reply. I definitely appreciate it!

Here is my counter-point. Please understand I am not trying to be argumentative. What I am going to say may come off as that because TEXT, but please do not read it that way.

That said:
I am aware of the "cheaper" Fighter abilities, and currently do not think they are worth buying for a couple of reasons.
1) For Disarm and Shatter - These can't be used in rapid succession in conjunction with another, stronger, skill or ability. I can't go up to a shield Fighter, for example, and Disarm their shield and then follow that up with a Stun Limb, Eviscerate, Slay, or other higher value skill.

2) If I were to put build into those, the more I get the more Plot has to adjust NPCs. This happens with Packets (Bryan, for example, regularly has 40+ Disarm spells at his disposal; as a result, 99% of things we encounter have Claws or are unaffected by Disarm, or they have a punishing amount of defenses against Disarm spells) and I can also see it happening with these Strikes because you only have to hit the item not the person any more, making them a lot easier to land/hit.

3) Intercept - in my opinion are bad skills for someone who is reasonably experienced at the game, and it is often more efficient to just Cure Light the victim and keep going rather than take the damage yourself (especially with super high body point counts). And the abundance of healing kind of reinforces "just pick them up off the ground". Higher levels have more resources, and therefore can choose to do it that way. Also, at 5th Level of Warleader, you get two Parry per day that can only be used on other people, effectively making them Intercept but without the downside of having to take the damage. Further, at level 2 of Warleader, I get 2 Intercepts (for 20 build) and 2/day Resist Command, something I wouldn't have access to otherwise which, for me is absolutely more valuable. I get another Spell Parry at Level 4 and a 1/day Resist Greater Command if I go that route too.

4) Resolute - I can see this being 'okay' as a last resort kind of thing, but it also puts a giant target on your head when your enemies hear you use that skill; they know you're at 1 body and about to go down, and any reasonably intelligent enemy will focus you until you go down. As an aside, my current build has me at 11 Parries, 12 if I build a LITTLE differently.

5) Crit Attack - From a build-spending perspective, for me, these aren't worth buying once you ceiling out at your chosen 8 or 10 Prof purchases. Part of the reason for that is that those additional points of damage often make little to no difference in a practical sense. In my experience - and I think this will be worse with all of the additional Mental Math that's been put into these rules - damage is rounded to the closest 5's or 10's place - 11's get rounded to 10's, 14's will sometimes get rounded to 15's, but often down to 10's depending on the NPC and their skill level.
Additionally, since I am never going to go past the 8 or 10 Prof ceiling, each Crit Attack I buy after that ceiling is, to me, wasted build. The situations my character gets into right now raw damage just doesn't solve, take-out effects do. So if I buy Crit Attacks just to get more take-out effects, all of that build is essentially wasted. In my mind, I'd have been better off literally buying any other skill (10 Waylays and 2 Dodges, for example, which are 10 more take-out effects and 2 better defenses than Intercept or Resolute for 56 build).
Finally, I feel that Crit Attacks lose substantial value with a "Flurry 3" rule in place. That rule significantly slows down combat, and allows you to get far less value out of timed abilities like "Crit Attack" than you otherwise would because of the "stepping back and resetting stance" aspect.

All that said:
For 50 build in Paragon Path of Warleader, I get:
4/day Teacher (1 build cost, so 4 "free" build if I were to buy)
3/day Resist Fear (Racial resist fear is 2 build, so effectively 6 "free" build if I were to buy)
2/day Intercept (2 build for Fighter, so 4 "free" build if I were to buy)
2/day Resist Command (Racial Resist Command is 4 per, so 8 build saved if I were to buy)
2/day Resist any Voice delivered effect. (not available to PC's; resist spell is 5 build per, so will estimate 10 build saved)
1/day Spell Parry (not a buyable skill; Parry is 4 but isn't required to "power" it any more, but just for discussion, 4 build saved)
1/day Resist Greater Command (not available to buy; resist Command is 4, would cost this a minimum of 6 build)
2/day Parry that can only be used on others. (Parry is 4, 8 build but can't be used for self-defense; NOT COUNTING the required pre-req Fighter Skills which would be 30 per Parry)

In total, I get ABOUT 50 "free" build in skills, "110" if you consider that you have to have 30 Fighter Skills to buy 1 Parry and you get 2 for "free".

And that isn't counting the Active/Passive effects.

(I was also looking at Skirmisher, Ravager and maybe Defender, though the latter is far less likely).

So in short, the opportunity cost, for me, is putting off buying Rogue skills or spells a little longer so I can get a Paragon Path because I've hit what I see as the "Melee Build Ceiling". Though, as a non-human (Scavenger), I could just buy Racial Dodge.

Edit to add:
At 380 Build as a Fighter (not super high level, but getting there, certainly), you can have OHE, Stylemaster, First Aid, Eviscerate x 5, Riposte x5, Imp Slay x11, Slay x11, Parry x11, 7 Stun Limb, Weapon Prof x8. Swing base 10; this leaves more than 50 build left over for me.

This is the point I am starting at for valuation of skills.
The next Prof is 39 Build, after that is 42 build, making non-rounded weapon damage calls a thing. Profs beyond those are just silly to pick up.

To put it in current perspective, a 4321 celestial pyramid and read magic is 47 build for a fighter. Some fighers have bought that, others haven't as the opportunity cost for buying skills that do not increase static damage or contribute to melee prowess is high.
I actually did this, as a Fighter, though I went all the way up to a 7th level spell slot before realizing that Fighter take-out effects and damage were better for the situation my character was in and Spirit Forged to full Fighter. Actually, you may have met me during period of my character build-out if you were in House Nemesis and went to the Week-Long at Traverse City; if you're the EC-JP I'm thinking of.

Anyway in light of all of that, I still feel that 50 build spent in Paragon Paths nets me significantly more value. Taking half-damage from all weapon blows (Ravager) is FAR more valuable than Resolute or Intercept, or being able to choose an Elemental Blade effect; being able to Swing the Body Carrier for 10 minutes is FAR more valuable than Crit Attacks that would have to chew through potentially 40 or more armor before actually hitting Body.
 
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Graham Wolsey

Scholar
Denver Staff
Marshal
I find your argument very persuasive that paragon paths are strictly better than any combination build a fighter can purchase for the same cost.

Isn't it telling that this is less obviously true for scholars?

At least these paths provide some high level scaling for fighters and rogues that is currently non existent in the current rules.
 
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