Bin Laden Dead!

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

Todd, if you hadn't made the offensive kick a dog statement, there wouldn't have been anything to take out of context. Hence: satire or "all-in-good-fun" humor is best reserved for those expecting and wanting it, and explanations as to why it's okay to kill in simulacrum a figure of world-wide renown/infamy in the manner he was truly killed in less than two weeks from his actual time of death will be largely ineffective to people who don't know you as a person, just as where your air conditioned house and SUV are.

 

[Ithica]

"Todd, if you hadn't made the offensive kick a dog statement, there wouldn't have been anything to take out of context'

Im offended by this statement, it violates my constitutional right of Free Speech.... See i can be offended too.

But honestly i understand that, and i understand if my joke was offensive, i knew someone would find it offensive, as has been one of my arguments/topics all along.

Cant live your life walking on egg shells.

But your post doesn't change the fact of what I'm saying about people stretching and altering things they read or hear. "If" factors or being offended doesn't change the rules.

-Toddy

 

[Mobius]

I had no intention of buying a dog and naming it Bin laden.. It was a joke, a point of view. If your offended about it then thats your right, but i could careless, and that my right.

You knew full well what you were doing and were ashamed enough to remove the original text. I do apologize for overstating your original purpose, but since you redacted the comment, I can only go from what I remember and the general tenor of your other arguments. Apologies. But, I think you trying to bait people, as is shown by how quickly you jumped on my response, is just dirty pool.

You can go on about how I'm twisting your words and how you're a Humanitarian Award winner (kudos, by the way; all pretense aside, that is impressive) but the fact is your polemics had crossed a line from indistinct poor taste into downright maliciousness. Speaking about the nature of the Media, the political discourse in the US, and the value of video-game catharsis is one thing; making a highly offensive comment about animal cruelty is another. I'm fine with charged language. Heck, most of rhetoric is based in it. You can't, however, make flippant comments about kicking dogs and think you'll get away with it. I'm not using your comment to deny or uplift your underlying argument for a violent video-game, I'm taking issue with the way you're presenting your point. Hold to whatever viewpoint you like, just maintain a certain amount of decorum while doing so.

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

Free speech covers a lot of ground, but is specifically curtailed by slander and libel laws, as well as various rulings regarding assault or incitement to riot. Further, just because you can do something doesn't mean you should, with apologies to George Mallory.

I agree, people will misremember or misinterpret, and if something needs to be said, then say it. That doesn't mean it can be said neither gently nor compassionately. My concern about bin Laden's recent death and the American response in fact rests largely on this point: there is little to be gained from a game which allows you to carry out that mission, and to my mind it would likely provoke more ill will. It's entirely possible that I'm overestimating the impact of any such thing; I've been known to do that. From a risk versus reward standpoint, though, does it really make much sense?

 

[Ithica]

I didnt remove the Text about adopting a dog, and i am certainly not ashamed of it. It was removed by one of the "Paladin moderators". I still thought it was funny and still do.

And your offense to that is also noted, and perhaps my joke was misplaced at the time (and to some should not ever been said no matter what in the history of foreverness).

No need for apologies either. And no personal offense is meant or given.

Also "Hold to whatever viewpoint you like, just maintain a certain amount of decorum while doing so "

Noted going forward... But I am also who I am, just like you are who you are. And everyone has a different way of expressing or getting their points of view. (Also kind of one of my points i been saying all along)

It is tough holding topics of discussion on forums like this. But sometimes i we forget we don;t know each other here personally. Most of us have never crossed paths and probably never will. So the phrase " Well if you knew 'John' you would understand thats his humor, or thats just how 'jason's is".

To sit and have this discussion face to face, saying the exact same things, would change the "vibe" of this topic and the "vibe" and meaning of the points of view a bit.

 

[Dom]

The first rule of comedy is never apologize for your joke. So long as one person laughs, the joke did its job.

Before you start saying "well it's not a very funny joke, it's offensive" there is something called dark comedy. And if you get offended by it, the joke still did its job and your reaction is where the comedy comes from.

Now if you can honestly say you thought he was actually going to go out, buy a dog and kick it around (because people on the internet are serious 100% of the time...) then this explanation is wasted on you.

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

This isn't a comedy club.

 

[RiddickDale]

OK. I'm going to a little public moderation here.

Let's let the dog thing go.

Toddy,

I know that you are who you are... but you know better. The dog thing offended some people. Sure, you like those kinds of jokes, but you know that some fo the people you game with are more sensitive than you are to those things. Please be a bit more careful moving forward. Sound fair?

Everyone else,

Lets allow the dog subject to drop. It is tangential to this discussion. We got 5 pages in before we started seeing flagged posts. Considering the nature of this topic that's pretty good. Let's keep it up.

Stephen
National PR

 

[Avaran]

we waste so much time as a country worried about what so many others think or say

I actually agree with you on this. We do waste a lot of time, money, and effort on big heaping steaming piles of solid bull droppings.

But...

There are times when discretion is the better part of valor. To quote an old saying, "He who knows when he can fight and when he cannot will be victorious."

I'm not saying don't be glad he's dead (that'd be silly), but don't put more worth into his death that there really is. Nothing has changed. I still can't take a bottle of water through airport security. I can still be sexually assaulted in a public place by so-called 'law enforcement' officials. We're still spending hundreds of billions of dollars in a war that we're not going to win. And oh yeah, our borders still aren't "secure" so it's all for nothing anyway. And oh yeah, all of those people are still dead, the buildings are still gone, and families are still destroyed.

I read an interesting bit last night about the financial cost of killing him -- 3 trillion dollars over 15 years.

The crack. It is expensive.

:zonks:

 

[Ithica]

This isn't a comedy club.

It isnt a court room, a Senate meeting, or politically accurate forum either.... Its a message board for a bunch of gamers who role play drama, comedy, adventure, hunt and kill animals and monsters, and kill enemies in play murder and combat. That are now posting in a section called "off topic".

When the forum reads " No comedy please" then your comment about not being a comedy club would be a valid point.

This is an open forum....


Steve, i said it was noted and even admitted it might of been misplaced, trying to be more sensitive to people. "I know better" is not true, I didn't know how many peeps would cry offense to it, nor said it to deliberately offend anyone. It was a reference at the time, a joke. ( But it could of been a stuffed Troll doll instead of a dog, and i now realize someone would of still complained or been offended probably)

I'm shocked at the level it was taken to, for real. But I know who to call out when a reference to South Park, Tosh .O, Family Guy or any other show/movie that uses harsh, in your face, "wow i agree but would never say that", kind of reference or humor.

 

[Ithica]

I'm not saying don't be glad he's dead (that'd be silly), but don't put more worth into his death that there really is. Nothing has changed.

Im trying to get back on the topic of discussion. So I am asking this as a sincere question.

But who gets to judge the worth of his death? Or maybe to you it hasnt changed anything. But perhaps to others it has changed a lot to them. Perhaps some people who are extremely patriotic find closure, or others who felt personally offended find some relief. I have heard that some people have nightmares that this guy attacks again and when they dream they see him Coming through their front door, perhaps his death is worth a lot more to some then others.

I see your point of views, And i too feel no big change. Im glad he's gone, it is a sense of pride and accomplishment. But i also said it would not make any difference to me had the USA stopped hunting him 3 years ago

 

[RiddickDale]

As a final point of clarification:

This is not an open forum. This is a closed forum with specific guidelines to follow. The expectation being that we will try to be respectful to each other. I know your goal wasn't to disrespect anyone. I don't even think the person who flagged your post thought that was your goal either. But, they were made uncomfortable. Staff acted appropriately.

If someone goes too far... the post is reported and it is handled by moderators or myself.

These boards have been a messy place in the last several years and we're trying to foster a positive community here.

There was no harm done. No lasting foul here. We've learned a lesson. Now lets move on.

Stephen
National PR

 

[Avaran]

But who gets to judge the worth of his death?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."

Are they just words on a page? Do people even think that way any more?

 

[Silverharp]

But who gets to judge the worth of his death?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."

Are they just words on a page? Do people even think that way any more?

All people ARE created equal, it's what you do with your life after that that's the question, no?
I think the issue is that with the Hitler comparison, he was feared by his own people, not near worshipped as the voicebox of God.
That we're dealing with a military leader who is also a religous leader AND who was killed in a covert op on foreign soil is where things can get murky.
I think the lads that pulled this off should get the reward, to be honest, and they deserve it.
But pulling off the "Kill BinLaden" level of a fps is too soon, I think. It's not demoralizing the enemy, it's enraging them, and giving them fule to the fire for bringing new converts in.

 

[Ithica]

"all men are created equal" is a great value and virtue. It is a great thing to believe in. I wish it were true, but sadly it is not like that any more for many people in this world. I mean most people come from their mommies belly. I was delivered by Stork... But honestly once you are 'born' and in the world, sadly the creation part is over, and its just not Equal anymore.

But we are referring to his end, his death, not his creation (never the less he was born filthy stinkin rich, so that right their doesn't present him as Equal, his hole life gets an entire different selection of paths to take)

The deeds that are done in ones life must have some meaning on how one is viewed during life and how one is remembered or thought of in death and after death. Some actions that are done during your life just simply put you less then Equal or sometimes greater then Equal.

There are no set standards on how to view someones death or their life. And if their was who gets to set those standards? And whats their right to set and force those standards on anyone? Was he capable of extraordinary things? Did he influence a great many of people, was he loved as a leader? Sure he did and was. But he was also hated and considered a liar and a fraud by others.

I guess his death should have no "monetary" value... Its only valued at whatever someone wants to value it at. And in this case the value someone has on it, is really beyond being changed.

What if Al Qaida came forward and showed that OBL fed 1000's of starving middle eastern refugees, children? Or that they came forward and showed evidence that he had been second guessing the attacks on 9/11? Do you think that would hold any weight over the American population that already hate him with the utmost intensity. Do you think it would have any impact at all? ( Same question different circumstance: after we dropped 2 Atom bombs on Japan, we then came out an apologized and said we didn't know the actual impact it would of had, Do you think that changed the view or opinion of any Japanese Citizen that already hated us for it? )

Also, and correct me if I am wrong. As i only recently started to to study and research WWII, But wasn't Hitler once loved by all of his people, he was their savior for quite some time, they elected him..... He was Time Life magazine person of the year in what 34? 35? This doesnt define him at all in the end... It was his actions after, when he went ballistic and extreme that made him feared and hated by most (Except some people who followed him to the end, most of SS), he became a terror on the World, no one gives a hoot what he did for Germany prior to losing his mind..

 

[markusdark]

But who gets to judge the worth of his death?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."

Are they just words on a page? Do people even think that way any more?

All people ARE created equal...

If that's the case, then why do we play in a game of "Be all that you CAN'T be?" There are genetics involved that will decide how physically and mentally fit you will wind up being. And the last guy who tried a radical way to make that a non-issue was driven to suicide by the US and allied forces (yup, made a Hitler reference :disgust: ) If every person is given the same upbringing, and follow the exact same path in life, some people will automatically have an advantage over others in various areas.

The question becomes - what equalities is your society willing to accept and which ones do they feel they need to denounce other societies for maintaining.

 

[Mobius]

I didnt remove the Text about adopting a dog, and i am certainly not ashamed of it. It was removed by one of the "Paladin moderators". I still thought it was funny and still do.

For the record, I neither reported you nor flagged your post. And, I think it was a horribly bad thing for a Paladin to censor what you wrote without having the decency to put an Edit flag up or comment to the fact. Black Censor Bars are bad enough, it's worse when things are "disappeared".

As for the content, I guess the tone caught me at an off moment. I've told my fair share of dead-baby jokes and find the likes of "Family Guy" to be hilarious (Seth McFarlane is a god [and should be forgiven for "American Dad"]), but that dog thing just caught me in the jaw. I suppose I saw it as degrading the tone of the conversation.

These kinds of discussions are tricky business and even Heads of State are in a confused tizzy. It took the White House the better part of a week to decide they weren't releasing the "kill photos" and they're still debating the funeral video. Sure, Free Speech is ONE corner stone of the US, but Respect for Humanity of all Kinds is another. When I start to hear that kind of commentary I often find it means frank discussion is dissolving into ear-stuffed shouting or, worse, hate-mongering. It's the kind of thing you hear from gabble-heads like Bill Maher and Rush Limbaugh.

To bring it back to the focus: as for the video game, I just think it brings focus onto the wrong part of the Bin Laden story. Instead of decrying his violence, denouncing his hate-filled vitriol, and rejecting his small-minded horrific world, it glorifies it. Emphasizing his kill-shot might give a brief hiccup of catharsis, but it also constantly underlines the idea that violence is the Only solution. Yes, National Defense is one of the first priorities for any government, but the military should be a back-hip tool used when diplomacy, reason, and compassion don't work. Otherwise, governments turn into Syria, Libya, and Ivory Coast where political discourse is preached from a gun barrel.

In this case, it was perhaps necessary, but that doesn't mean it should be lauded - we should instead condemn the situation for getting that far and hope it never needs be done again. When one chooses to only see hammers, every problem starts to look like a nail.

 

[Silverharp]

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."

Are they just words on a page? Do people even think that way any more?

All people ARE created equal...

If that's the case, then why do we play in a game of "Be all that you CAN'T be?" There are genetics involved that will decide how physically and mentally fit you will wind up being. And the last guy who tried a radical way to make that a non-issue was driven to suicide by the US and allied forces (yup, made a Hitler reference :disgust: ) If every person is given the same upbringing, and follow the exact same path in life, some people will automatically have an advantage over others in various areas.

The question becomes - what equalities is your society willing to accept and which ones do they feel they need to denounce other societies for maintaining.

You need to read the rest of what I wrote, Marc. Everyone pops into this world the same way. Circumstances may be different, but we're all human. It was his choice to lead a "holy war" on an entire nation because he needed an enemy to have power, as with so many other would be dictators in the past, but in regards to other attackers in recent history, OBL is regarded also as a holy man, and that must be taken into accoutn when dealing with the situation

 

[Ithica]

Its all good Mobius. It is relieving that after smoke settles and tones are changed, we can take a step back re-read what is said or we ourselves typed and simply agree to disagree on certain things, with no permanent insult given or taken. All though we do share similar views on some things that are being said. ( and thanks for understanding my Family guy comment and why it was said)

Like i said, if this conversation were face to face, most of the Tone and Vibe of this discussion would be a lot different. So much gets lost in none-face to face discussion.

 

[jpariury]

But who gets to judge the worth of his death?

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal..."

Are they just words on a page? Do people even think that way any more?

Gotta say, I don't. If given the choice between saving a loved one and saving a stranger, there's no coin toss, the loved one gets picked. Vast pools of inequality are born between being a random collection of cells and the here and now.