Bin Laden Dead!

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

The concept of a mourning period is present in most major civilizations in history.

very few people are actually mourning the death of Osama Bin Ladin. Americans were not the only people that Al Qaeda attacked. He had his hands in the deaths of quite a few Afghani muslim non-extremists as well. Basically, anybody who did not agree with him. Anybody who is actually mourning his death was working off of the same ideals as him and would only make the game even better if they were in it as well. In my opinion, that is.

In mine as well. Like I said before, I am personally well pleased with his death. I do not think it is in the best interests of the US or really anyone rational to make him a martyr, and certainly not to push the issue so soon. My point was directed at JP, who seems to have slipped into argutron mode. On that thought:

Dear JP,

I deeply enjoy debating with you. I hate arguing with you. Please stop being argumentative.

Love,

Dan

 

[jpariury]

I don't know that I am. History is not a good judge of whether or not an idea either has value or should be observed. Not every death should require a period of mourning, if one can be said to be necessitated at all. We can make jokes about the wholesale slaughter of chickens even though thousands of chickens die daily to make tasty nuggets, yet I'm at a loss for coming up with five ways Osama Bin Laden was better than a chicken. We can't judge him for who we imagine he might be to someone else, we can only treat him for who he was to our selves. I don't see why this idea should be judged so poorly.

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

Well, Debationox, that's a fair point. My counter is that there are absolutely people who are now or will be on the edge of deciding between the late bin Laden's way of "thinking" and a more rational view of the world. It is not unreasonable for us, as a society, to represent ourselves well by being gracious. How we treat our enemies says as much or more about us as how we treat our friends. Gloating doesn't impress much of anyone worth impressing, so it behooves us to be tactful. The point about the mourning period is not that we should be saddened by his passing, but acknowledge that even though he was a monster and represented something inhuman, we are not and don't. Various high officials of the US have spoken about "hearts and minds", and this situation strikes me as exactly the sort of opportunity to show that we absolutely will defend ourselves with lethal force, but that our interest is in justice and safety, not vengeance. Vengeful people do not make lasting allies.

 

[markusdark]

But the creation of a video game would not denote the US as a whole, anymore than Bin Laden denoted Muslims as a whole. Now, if said game went to #1 in the gaming charts and won a huge number of awards, then I could see an issue about portraying the US badly. But just as we have been instructed over and over again not to see Al Queda as how Muslims are, shouldn't we expect the same back from the world to realize that the game company doesn't represent the US?

Of course, now that I say this, I am reminded of what a Single Pastor did in Florida and 12 people were killed abroad because of it.

 

[Cpt.MarcusNelson]

Wow, ok.... first off from a lot of the knee jerk, overly PC remarks over my Call of Duty comment I am guessing a lot of people here have never played a CoD game.

As for it being distasteful I would suggest looking at the world through a different lense.

Fact: Bin Laden facilitated the first foreign attack on US soil since pearl harbor. On a historic level this puts him in the upper class of world villiany.

Forget the religeous component and the ridiculus PC stuff for a minute and look at the events of the last ten years through the lens of historic signifigance.

The operation that took him down was the single most successful covert op ever. The last operation that was similar ruined Carter's administration and was turned into a major motion picture called "Black Hawk Down".

I completely fail to see how transcribing signifigant historic events into entertainment media is somehow taboo in anyway. What makes a video game the line that shouldn't be crossed. Under the current logic of "being better than that" or "too soon" should we even be talking about his death? If a video game would get the psychopaths who perpatrate this violence whipped into a frenzy then what about this board thread? A bunch of americans talking about how happy they are he is dead. What about talk radio? The evening news? Fox? CNN? John Stewart? Steven Colbert? How are any of the affor mentioned entertainment outlets somehow different?

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

Wow, ok.... first off from a lot of the knee jerk, overly PC remarks over my Call of Duty comment I am guessing a lot of people here have never played a CoD game.

As for it being distasteful I would suggest looking at the world through a different lense.

Fact: Bin Laden facilitated the first foreign attack on US soil since pearl harbor. On a historic level this puts him in the upper class of world villiany.

Forget the religeous component and the ridiculus PC stuff for a minute and look at the events of the last ten years through the lens of historic signifigance.

The operation that took him down was the single most successful covert op ever. The last operation that was similar ruined Carter's administration and was turned into a major motion picture called "Black Hawk Down".

I completely fail to see how transcribing signifigant historic events into entertainment media is somehow taboo in anyway. What makes a video game the line that shouldn't be crossed. Under the current logic of "being better than that" or "too soon" should we even be talking about his death? If a video game would get the psychopaths who perpatrate this violence whipped into a frenzy then what about this board thread? A bunch of americans talking about how happy they are he is dead. What about talk radio? The evening news? Fox? CNN? John Stewart? Steven Colbert? How are any of the affor mentioned entertainment outlets somehow different?

Black Hawk Down had nothing to do with Carter. The events that that film are based off of took place in 1993, under Clinton's presidency. They did not destroy his career.

CoD as a game franchise has virtually nothing to do with the main discussion, nobody said it does. The comments were made in general. For the record, the controversial map of MW2 was in my eyes completely inappropriate.

Calling the comments of other knee jerk does nothing to contribute to a constructive conversation. The subject is one that is highly emotionally charged, and deserves to be treated here with the same sensitivity it deserves in its global format.

It is completely appropriate to keep the religious component in full view at all times. Consider the case of Nathan Bedford Forrest, a man who was and is symbolic of both white and Christian supremacy. Nearly a century and a half after the fact, he is still honored heavily in the south, despite his involvements with the Fort Pillow massacre and the Ku Klux Klan. He remains a symbol of what many still alive today wish the Confederacy had been, even though I am certain that no one here would choose to sincerely stand up in favor of slavery, racism, antisemitism, terrorism and murder. To whit, he is popular amongst many Americans. Is it fair to tiptoe around him for 130 years while bin Laden, certainly a monster in his own right, has been dead a week and people are calling for the chance to experience killing him personally via PS3? If current American state governments can continue to honor and exalt a man who stood for violent terrorism and racial and religious persecution, why is it that modern day Muslims can not think of bin Laden and see a man who at least stood up for his people?

I am not condoning bin Laden's actions or ideologies. I am relieved he is dead. That doesn't mean I cannot appreciate the possible considerations of people whose skin tone and beliefs about god are different from my own.

 

[Ithica]

I still think people are delusional if you think, making a video game about killing this guy, celebrating his death, making jokes about his death, or dancing in our front yard burning OBL dolls would influence the over all well being, world view on this country. People are going to think what they want, make a martyr of him if they want, and blow up a train station if they want.... Nothing we do or don't do will hold any weight what so ever.

To see the constant bickering and division of political parties. People Rallying over this or protesting over that, seeing how someone's always offended...

You got people protesting the death Penalty sentence of a Guy here in Ct, that broke into a house, sexually assaulted a minor, and then burned the house down, along with the children (tied up to beds). Yet people still protest this guy getting the Death penalty... If that happened in different part of the World the guy would of been dragged into the streets and stoned to death, and no one would of protested.

Then we have bail out, corporate jokes, in a country like China if a Bank rips people off and blows/loses 100million do to poor strategy, they would probably execute the CEO's, Seize their property and assets, and sell their children into slavery. In This country, we just give the bank another 100million...

After the news of OBL's death, before this country got to take it in, or before details of the raid or 9/11 tributes were made. The media ran out to produce stories like "Pakistan offended after what the USA did", or "Native Americans upset, the codeword referring to OBL during the raid was 'Geronimo'...

These are only a few examples, but seriously, how forgivable and divided this country is right now, How you have to watch every little thing that is said, to make sure it doesn't offend anyone or anyone's rights, make sure its politically accurate... And now even this debate on whether or not we are allowed/or should celebrate OBL's death... are you serious?

Cpt. said it right, OBL was the first person to launch a major attack on the USA since Pearl Harbor. However Back then we dropped bombs and then apologized afterwards. It sent a message, to everyone.... Now a days some of the actions or message sent only encourage people to attack us, and not out of Hate, but do to weakness. (Think im kidding, read a headline in an Afghanistan or Iraq paper/bulletin, they refer to USA being weak all the time, whether its false is irrelevant, they then turn on USA TV or pick up a USA paper and simply watch a story I mentioned above or 1 like it unfold...)

This is America, F-Bin Laden, glad he's. Could careless if Al Qaida, Muslims, Taliban or Jackie Chan views him as a Hero, Martyr or Saint... I'd piss on his corpse if i had the chance.

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

I still think people are delusional if you think, making a video game about killing this guy, celebrating his death, making jokes about his death, or dancing in our front yard burning OBL dolls would influence the over all well being, world view on this country. People are going to think what they want, make a martyr of him if they want, and blow up a train station if they want.... Nothing we do or don't do will hold any weight what so ever.

Cpt. said it right, OBL was the first person to launch a major attack on the USA since Pearl Harbor. However Back then we dropped bombs and then apologized afterwards. It sent a message, to everyone.... Now a days some of the actions or message sent only encourage people to attack us, and not out of Hate, but do to weakness. (Think im kidding, read a headline in an Afghanistan or Iraq paper/bulletin, they refer to USA being weak all the time, whether its false is irrelevant, they then turn on USA TV or pick up a USA paper and simply watch a story I mentioned above or 1 like it unfold...)

Pulled out those two paragraphs. You cannot have it both ways. If Arabic or Muslim newspapers and citizens' actions color your opinion of those groups, it is not possible for you to also claim that our media and citizens have no effect on anyone's opinion of us. To do so is tantamount to saying they are less human than us.

 

[Avaran]

Cpt. said it right, OBL was the first person to launch a major attack on the USA since Pearl Harbor.

Not necessarily accurate.

There was an Aleutian Islands Campaign that started in June of 1942 when the Japanese attacked Alaska, 1500 Americans died in the action. I'd call that major. Side note: as far as I know, it is the last time enemy foreign troops have set foot on US soil in a major military campaign/assault.

You can probably Google more info about it.

The More You Know™

 

[Lurin]

Cpt. said it right, OBL was the first person to launch a major attack on the USA since Pearl Harbor.

Not necessarily accurate.

There was an Aleutian Islands Campaign that started in June of 1942 when the Japanese attacked Alaska, 1500 Americans died in the action. I'd call that major. Side note: as far as I know, it is the last time enemy foreign troops have set foot on US soil in a major military campaign/assault.

You can probably Google more info about it.

The More You Know™

This was by the same country, barely six months after Pearl Harbor, I'd wager you can count that as being the same assault/war on America and significantly distinct enough to invalidate the point. Not to mention he mentioned person, not attack event specifically and the Japanese high command was largely the same for both events. (As an aside did you hear about this from the episode of pawn stars that aired tonight by chance?) Compared to the wartime condition (this was nearly the same time as midway and some scholars think it was meant as a distraction.) 1500 people was regrettably not a statistically significant number for the battles that were on going. Although the Battle of Midway saw only slightly above twice that inflicted to the Japanese, you have to understand that naval battles are largely about equipment not soldiers (although obviously man power is essential, the numbers need to be effective are simply a magnitude less then land battles)

Overall It was a good deal, the Japanese lost their momentum and advantage in naval power, in return for an ultimately meaningless foothold, although if we had lost midway and not shifted the momentum in naval power it could have meant nastier things.

As a tongue in cheek response

A little knowledge™ (Can be a dangerous thing)

 

[Avaran]

This was by the same country, barely six months after Pearl Harbor, I'd wager you can count that as being the same assault/war on America and significantly distinct enough to invalidate the point. Not to mention he mentioned person, not attack event specifically and the Japanese high command was largely the same for both events. ... Compared to the wartime condition (this was nearly the same time as midway and some scholars think it was meant as a distraction.) 1500 people was regrettably not a statistically significant number for the battles that were on going. Although the Battle of Midway saw only slightly above twice that inflicted to the Japanese, you have to understand that naval battles are largely about equipment not soldiers (although obviously man power is essential, the numbers need to be effective are simply a magnitude less then land battles)

Overall It was a good deal, the Japanese lost their momentum and advantage in naval power, in return for an ultimately meaningless foothold, although if we had lost midway and not shifted the momentum in naval power it could have meant nastier things.

As a tongue in cheek response

A little knowledge™ (Can be a dangerous thing)

I believe he was referring to America/US soil specifically; contextual clues point me in this direction since he was also referring to 9/11 specifically. I, of course, could be wrong, but he certainly didn't mention Midway, The Bulge, or other famous WWII battles in reference to "attacks on the US".

If you're going to be obnoxious about it, why not just mention Korea? Vietnam? Or hell, Iraq War 1? The attack on the USS Cole? The bombing of a US Embassy? Hell, that's technically US soil.

Anyway, there are also historians who also think that it wasn't a feint, that it was a move to protect the Northern part of the country and potentially launch air assaults, etc, etc. But then, there are historians who think a lot of things. Doesn't mean they're right.

Talking statistical relevance is just...silly.

What number is statistically important? 1? 10,000? 100,000? 1,000,000? Arbitrary BS is arbitrary.

If you REALLY want to push the envelope of that argument, 9/11 isn't statistically relevant either. But, ya know, "We'll never forget." Right?

(As an aside did you hear about this from the episode of pawn stars that aired tonight by chance?)

No. I don't even know what that is. A lot of my electives in college were history oriented.

My tongue is bleeding. :hahaha: hmy: :yummy:

 

[Ithica]

I still think people are delusional if you think, making a video game about killing this guy, celebrating his death, making jokes about his death, or dancing in our front yard burning OBL dolls would influence the over all well being, world view on this country. People are going to think what they want, make a martyr of him if they want, and blow up a train station if they want.... Nothing we do or don't do will hold any weight what so ever.

Cpt. said it right, OBL was the first person to launch a major attack on the USA since Pearl Harbor. However Back then we dropped bombs and then apologized afterwards. It sent a message, to everyone.... Now a days some of the actions or message sent only encourage people to attack us, and not out of Hate, but do to weakness. (Think im kidding, read a headline in an Afghanistan or Iraq paper/bulletin, they refer to USA being weak all the time, whether its false is irrelevant, they then turn on USA TV or pick up a USA paper and simply watch a story I mentioned above or 1 like it unfold...)

Pulled out those two paragraphs. You cannot have it both ways. If Arabic or Muslim newspapers and citizens' actions color your opinion of those groups, it is not possible for you to also claim that our media and citizens have no effect on anyone's opinion of us. To do so is tantamount to saying they are less human than us.

The first paragraph was only speaking on circumstances or actions regarding the Death of Osama Bin Laden, Nothing we do or do not do to celebrate or to hide OBL's death will hold any sway over his allies. They are going to think what they want and Do what they want regardless.

All the stuff written and examples of stories produced, was referring to paragraph 2


Hope that clears it up

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

Not really, no. I still see you as arguing that our actions are meaningless except when they're not.

As far as bin Laden's allies, I'm sure there are people who are dead set on hating the US and will never change their minds. Some people are intractable like that, blind to facts and deaf to critique. Not everyone is, though; most people are not extremists who are incapable of even seeing the other side. It is that quieter majority, those who will consider the situation before settling their minds that I am now and have been talking about.

 

[Ithica]

I see what your saying Dan and can see your point of view. I think are Disagreement is on this.

"It is that quieter majority, those who will consider the situation before settling their minds that I am now and have been talking about."

I respect your views and you as a friend.

I guess my point of view on that part you narrowed down is, they already think what they think.... and we waste so much time as a country worried about what so many others think or say, furthermore the majority do already hate us. There has to come a time when we should just careless about trying to change that and focus time and energy to more real problems here on home soil. And if it brings joy to Americans celebrating in the streets then so be it, if it brings smiles or entertainment value to some people to play a video game hunting OBL down, then we as Americans have that right and should careless what my neighbor let alone some other person on the other side of the world is gonna feel/say.

LOVE YOU ALL, im off to the dog pound! :yummy:

 

[Duke Frost]

Being offended at such a video game is any citizen's right and/or choice. However, in the U.S., it is also someone else's right to make the game. For some reason, U.S. society seems to think video games corrupt people in ways that other art or media do not. There is seemingly much more outrage over video games than movies, t.v., etc. There is so much crap out there, especially in the age of the internet, that everyone who spends time on the internet is corrupted to some extent. But the makers of said game have the same right to make it as some numbskull has to make a picture of Christ with poop on him. Now, whether our government (us) should fund such "art" is a discussion for another day. So the bottom line is, the game will get made...some will get offended...some will play it...and most won't even know it exists. Hell, it's little over a week since the raid, and I don't hear anyone at work talking about Bin Laden (and I work in a company of 500 or so). I hear a lot more talk about gas prices, the economy and how we're going to go into a second housing crisis.

I am with Toddy however in that such a video game will not make a whisper of difference in terrorist recruitment. While some of the higher level terrorists are educated or somewhat educated, many are barely subsistence farmers. The majority are recruited because they have nothing to lose, not because Toddy is pushing some buttons. People also often leave out that opium is Afghanistan's #1 source of income and is used liberally in recruiting terrorists, especially suicide bombers. Hell, this topic on a message board might be the most influence said video game may have, except for maybe a snippet on the nightly news in an attempt to shock Mr. & Mrs. Average America.

Scott

 

[jpariury]

Whether or not a particular activity, be it making fps maps of the event, or comedy, is "inhumane" or whatnot is largely a matter for your audience. Take the joke "Hear about the new drink called a Bin Laden? Three shots and a splash of water, goes right to your head". I would never suggest telling that joke in downtown Abbottabad, but in a GI barracks? Comedy -gold-.

 

[Dom]

I'm sorry but I have to say this. I'm sick of everybody being so politically correct about everything. Osama was an A-hole. He planned and funded an attack on US soil killing thousands of people in a matter of hours because they didn't believe what he did. He is no different than Hitler. I'm pretty sure when the death of Hitler was announced, there were plenty of cartoons and posters and movies celebrating his death. The cover of Time magazine showing Osama Bin Ladin's face with a big red X through it, they did the exact same thing with Hitler. The only difference now is the technology available to us. Back then they made movies, now we make video games. Perhaps doing this type of thing makes us look callous but let's see how long it is before somebody else tries what he did.

We will find you, kill you, immortalize you in a video game and allow each of our citizens to kill you whenever they see fit.

Now that I think of it, this video game may actually give some people closure.

 

[Mobius]

LOVE YOU ALL, im off to the dog pound! :yummy:

Alright, enough with your cruelty to animal jokes. I'm more than willing to read about the horrible things you want to do to other adult humans. You want to spend all day pulling the trigger on a Digital Osama, go to - but stop with the "gonna buy a pound-puppy and kick it to death" stupidity. There's a basement to rhetoric, even for discussions like this, and you're digging into it.

 

[Dan Nickname Beshers]

When did it become okay to call being respectful "PC" and say we didn't need to do it anymore? Certainly some people take the eggshells thing too far, but the basic idea of thinking about the impact of your words before you say/write/autotune/whatever them is still a valuable part of society, isn't it?

Please take a moment to consider N.B. Forrest. He was and is a heroic figure to many Americans, despite his involvement in some deeply inhumane stuff. People everywhere of all kinds will honor someone for fighting for what they believed in. There are, I promise you, people who respect bin Laden for being a champion of Islam and aren't fully informed about the true nature of things. These are people who are being told by fanatical religious and political leaders that we are something we are not; it is these people and their children who become terrorists. When we act like the monsters and shaitan those propagandists call us, it makes their job far, far simpler. I'm not advocating appeasement or anything of the like; just that we comport ourselves with enough dignity that critical thinkers everywhere have the chance to see that we aren't just decadent infidels, but humans just as they are.

 

[Ithica]

LOVE YOU ALL, im off to the dog pound! :yummy:

Alright, enough with your cruelty to animal jokes. I'm more than willing to read about the horrible things you want to do to other adult humans. You want to spend all day pulling the trigger on a Digital Osama, go to - but stop with the "gonna buy a pound-puppy and kick it to death" stupidity. There's a basement to rhetoric, even for discussions like this, and you're digging into it.

Thank you for confirming most of the message i been saying all along...

I never said i was gonna kick a puppy to death, it was about an old mangy dog, and never anything about death.... But you did what i have been saying all along. You took it and was offended but instead of sticking to word for word. You then made it a puppy, and then took it to the extreme of "death"... You took what i typed, extended and then twisted to further better your argument, made it more dramatizing. Then you probably reported it from "your" words and point of view.

Stick to the facts man, you read something that is written or said, take the parts you see fit and turn it around. It's ok, it only confirms most of what i say. And that my friend is whats wrong with this country, the media and people like you twisting/dramatizing crap around to spread their points of views.

It is also the same tactics our enemies use to spread propaganda and convince/sway peoples opinions on us. ( Im not calling anyone a terrorist here, so dont take it out of context). This is why nothing we try to do or try not to do to offend anyone, will always have minimal effect, people/enemies are gonna twist, manipulate and "alter" motives, actions, or intentions to how they see fit.

I had no intention of buying a dog and naming it Bin laden.. It was a joke, a point of view. If your offended about it then that's your right. It was not said to deliberately offend you.


-Toddy