Corrupt - Is this ready for use?

[Sage of Legaia]

Edit: Sniped.

 

[Saephis]

Well, rebirth only happens at 4:59 of your Death Timer. Corrupt pauses that timer. When Corrupt ends, your Death timer restarts where it was and your Rebirth would go off at 4:59 as it would normally.

That's not what the wording in Corrupt's proposed effect is.

This means that if during the five minute Death Countdown the creature is reduced to 0 Body Points and then given a Life spell, they will reawaken alive but with no knowledge of their time spent as Undead.

 

[KyleSchmelz]

If it's run as written, then the caster could choose not to activate their Rebirth and just resurrect as normal. They resurrect, but at least their Rebirth isn't wasted.

 

[Saephis]

Yet, its an Earth effect (now), and Undead are pretty globally effected by Earth.

Leading to the point of inconsistencies off these changes. Again.

 

[mythic]

Yet, its an Earth effect (now), and Undead are pretty globally effected by Earth.

Leading to the point of inconsistencies off these changes. Again.

When Corrupt ends, they are no longer Undead. They go back to their "original state" (dead). So if they are given a Life spell and reawaken, then the Rebirth does the same thing. I just think you may have missed that step in the spell.

@KyleSchmelz I guess. Not sure why they would not activate it. I guess, if they are still in "hostile" territory they could choose not to.

 

[Saephis]

So, you would both support the exceptions being made that there are now Earth spells that Undead aren't effected by, intentionally-as-written?

I understand what you're saying, however this is why moving Life to an Earth/Healing effect doesn't make sense systematically. You're opening the door to Earth/Healing effects that don't effect Undead ... who are literally the opposite of it, as written.

 

[Thorgrim]

Given the results of this poll, it really makes me question the entire process of play testing and the feedback form. Out of 32 people who have voted on the play test forum, 81% feel that the rule is not ready to be in play and is imbalanced. That's a pretty staggering percentage of players opposed. When I look at the people who have voted, I see user names from what I believe are several different chapters, so it is not just one chapter that is overwhelmingly influencing the poll.

So I have to ask, how did this make it through feedback in previous rounds if such an overwhelming % of people here think it's broken? Is the 81% here just an anomaly and not representative of the player base? A larger sample size would be great for sure, but I can't see a scenario where we could go from 80% against to 80% in favor (or whatever the mysterious threshold of approval is required to put the seal of approval on an item based on feedback forms).

 

[Sage of Legaia]

So, you would both support the exceptions being made that there are now Earth spells that Undead aren't effected by, intentionally-as-written?

Life says rather explicitly it only has no effect on a living creature. If your argument is that it should have some effect on Undead because it's Healing now, and Healing effects do the opposite effect to Undead creatures that they do to living ones, what is it you propose the opposite of "no effect" should be?

 

[Saephis]

Life says rather explicitly it only has no effect on a living creature. If your argument is that it should have some effect on Undead because it's Healing now, and Healing effects do the opposite effect to Undead creatures that they do to living ones, what is it you propose the opposite of "no effect" should be?

A pretty regular question on "What does Life do to the Undead", sure. If Corrupt kills the living and makes them Undead, the inverse would be that Life kills undead, making them living. Or a corpse/dust if its been more than five minutes.

I'm unsure why you're citing Life RE: Living, that hasn't been the question, especially with @Polare 's note earlier regarding <Living>, <Undead>, <Dead> states.

My point is that Healing, universally, effects the undead. This is one that breaks that consistency -- and with consistency being a "point" within this whole process, something that is entirely counter to that point of the rules revisions.

 

[Sage of Legaia]

Healing , universally, affects living creatures, too. Except for Life, which specifically doesn't, so... *Shrug* I'm really not seeing how "Life has no effect on a target that isn't dead" is inconsistent.

 

[mikestrauss]

That is an interesting point. I'm not looking at the 2.0 rules right now, but based on how reversible spells are supposed to work, when Life hits an undead, it should act upon the undead in exactly the same way that a Corrupt spell would act upon a living creature.

In short, it should kill the undead and then raise it as an undead under your control. HOWEVER, due to the wording on every undead card I have ever seen (other than some vampires and liches who have alternate "dead" states), when an undead is reduced to 0 body or less, it turns into a pile of dust. As best I can tell, that turning to dust should prevent all parts of the effect that would normally occur after the undead is destroyed (because it isn't even a body at that point).

As I said, I'm not looking at the current 2.0 rules for Life. It may have a clause (or have kept the old clause) that says that it has no effect against undead. If it doesn't, though, it should work as described above against undead (effectively destroying them regardless of whether they are lesser or greater).

-MS

 

[Avaran]

As I said, I'm not looking at the current 2.0 rules for Life. It may have a clause (or have kept the old clause) that says that it has no effect against undead. If it doesn't, though, it should work as described above against undead (effectively destroying them regardless of whether they are lesser or greater).

I can help you out there.

There is no new text for the Life spell itself in the new rules. It is mentioned several times (mostly saying it is the new reverse of the Life spell, despite the fact that Death still exists as its own stand-alone effect), but there's no "this is Life, this is what it does now" type entry. So, presumably, it works just like it does now (no effect to Undead).

 

[mikestrauss]

On that count, I would be fully in favor of Life mimicking Corrupt (until the turn to dust portion of undead stats overrode the remainder of the spell) against undead, thus resulting in a one-shot kill spell against all undead (thematically very appropriate for a 9th level earth spell).

-MS

 

[Samyania]

I actually like that a great deal, and would be more likely to memorize Lifes regardless of the absence of Deaths as their flip side.

 

[Saephis]

Healing , universally, affects living creatures, too. Except for Life, which specifically doesn't, so... *Shrug* I'm really not seeing how "Life has no effect on a target that isn't dead" is inconsistent.

It feels like I'm arguing semantics, but it really isn't.

ARB 1.3: Life is currently a Gift. Undead are not effected by Gift. Undead universally effected by Earth and Healing effect groups.

Proposed Rules 0.9: Life is proposed to be Earth. Earth no longer universally effects undead, contradicting intention of Rule Proposal packets to simplify and streamline rules.

As proposed, this introduces a brand new inconsistency.

 

[mikestrauss]

I'm going to reluctantly propose a compromise (reluctant because it is meaningless unless an owner grabs hold of it and runs with it).

Create Undead: Upgrade this spell so that it works similar to Corrupt (full body, all skills, player choice to opt out of one-shot skill/item use, fully controlled by caster). Also add death timer stoppage, or better yet, reset (because tracking two timers sucks).

Corrupt: Kills a living creature. If creature takes effect, caster heals to full and takes 1/2 damage from all damage sources (must call reduced) for 10 minutes. Conceptually, the spell kills the target and syphons strength to the caster.

Life: When cast on an undead creature, works EXACTLY like Corrupt does when cast on a living target. Thus, the reversible effect of healing/necromancy is perfectly preserved.

I think this maintains the coolness of being able to make a true short-term battle undead, makes necromancy scarier (because it really isn't scary in 1.3) and solves all of the Corrupt/Life questions while still making Corrupt feel like it deserves to be a 9th level spell.

-MS

 

[Shades]

On that count, I would be fully in favor of Life mimicking Corrupt (until the turn to dust portion of undead stats overrode the remainder of the spell) against undead, thus resulting in a one-shot kill spell against all undead (thematically very appropriate for a 9th level earth spell).

-MS

I like this, and so I want to ask, instead of the proposed rule, what if it worked like this.

1) Life kills undead.
2) If you rebirth/take a life as a Corrupt, you take the above, drop dead, and your death counter starts over.
or
2b) If you take a life as a Corrupt you are alive at 1 body.

 

[Saephis]

Seeing Create Undead be "fixed" to be similar or in-line with Berserk/Charm would be nice, honestly.

If Create Undead paused your death timer, you rose with your skills and lasted for ten minutes with no extensions, with the current standard undead guidelines, I feel like that would give Create Undead some much-needed teeth, without the quagmire of contradictions and special cases that Corrupt is. After you're dropped or the ten minutes are up, fall down, start your normal death timer. Continue on with existence.

Edit: And I think its pretty safe to say that those players are *definitely* going to remember their Death timer.

 

[Alkalin3]

I'm going to reluctantly propose a compromise (reluctant because it is meaningless unless an owner grabs hold of it and runs with it).

Create Undead: Upgrade this spell so that it works similar to Corrupt (full body, all skills, player choice to opt out of one-shot skill/item use, fully controlled by caster). Also add death timer stoppage, or better yet, reset (because tracking two timers sucks).

At the very least, I'm a fan of it because it makes create undead viable as a way to get friends back. Which makes necromancy super tempting. It's almost like a lower level life spell. A friend died behind enemy lines, I can create him and tell him to come to me. If he has skills, he can probably make his way back. That's a tempting deal with the devil. Even in a bad scenario where he gets killed instantly, I've reset his death count. If you can be recreated multiple times, it makes this spell *really* good as a player. Which is the problem with the spell now. It's pretty good as an npc who has a card that can rez people.

 

[Alavatar]

If Create Undead pauses the death timer then it could make for some interesting moral dilemmas. "I don't have a Life, but I have a Destroy Undead. That person on the other side of town has a Life..." *Create Undead* "Find So-and-so and kill yourself when you get within 10 feet of them." Since there is no visual effect to Create Undead, who's gonna know?

Also, it could make a fight interesting for 10 minutes if used on a team outside of view from prying eyes.

And finally, if Create Undead pauses the death timer then could it be cast multiple times on a dead person to artificially extend the death timer? I see the "10 minutes with no extensions", but if the effect ends and they revert to a dead body again counting down to resurrect, you could in theory cast Create Undead again. Unless exception rules are added "Only affects a body once after the character has entered the 'Dead' state. After which the character must receive a Life and then enter the 'Dead' state again before being a viable target for Create Undead." But, that seems counter to the intent of reducing exceptions. Also, I kind of like the idea of Necromancy artificially extending the death count ... using Necromantic Energy to keep the body sustained for a bit longer seems thematically appropriate.