Latex Coated Foam

Dangles said:

Nope, neither have a 2" diameter open cell foam thrusting tip or waylay tip. In addition, their striking edge it too thin. Needs to be at least 5/8" thick (I believe). Although the second one, if covered in cloth instead of tape, would be allowed in just about any other US LARP other than Alliance/NERO.
 
To the best of my knowledge LARP games, including those Belegarth psychos, are consistently very safe. This is all annecdotal of course, but I'm going to offer it up anyway, because I don't have numbers.

With a football team, you've got 30-60 or however many kids they put on those things, running around every day, lifting weights, training, slamming into things, slamming into each other, falling down, getting thrown, whatever. They train five days a week and play a game, so they're got something like twenty training days and four game days every month, and every one of those days is intensive physical activity involving active grappling, tackling, and throwing, all the while wearing disgracefully poorly designed armor and not using shields.

With any given Larp, you've generally got one game day a month, and between one and four practice days. Instead of one 200 pound kid charging pell-mell into another 200 pound kid at full bore you've got people whacking each other with boffers or rattan sticks or whatever. So immediately we're down from 400 pounds charging at a combined speed of 20 miles an hour to something like .5-2 pounds, still going something like 20 miles an hour.

On top of that, the guys who really hit each other (Belegarth excluded, they're crazy) typically wear rigorously, even anally, safe armor, Consisting massive steel helms, gorget, kidney belt, some kind of crotch protector, full knees and elbows, generally with wings and associated greaves and cannons, and so forth. Hell, they even wear gauntlets. When was the last time you saw a foot ball player wearing gauntlets?

And on top of that you've got a lot of safety conscious players and martials who will call a Hold if they see a dangerous situation, and a lot of players who will drop whatever they're doing when someone calls hold, which you really don't get in most sports.

So, the Larpers tend to have better armor to protect them from much less severe impacts, they're usually more concerned with safety than screwing up the play, they're not throwing or tackling each other, they're using shields, and instead of trying to bodily hurl someone out of the way they're trying to strike them with a weapon that can 'kill' with relatively little force.

My point is that what is considered 'safe' for a seventeen year old kid is a lot more dangerous than what Larpers put themselves through. I've been told time and again that SCA, Bel, Dag, and Amtgard have very good relations with their insurance agencies because they have very low rates of injury for a physically active sport.

I should also point out that each of them insists that the way they do it is the safest. SCA just has to have 16 gauge thick helmets, no matter that that's several gauges thicker than many medieval examples and might just be adding unnecessary weight. Amtgard swears up and down by their pool noodles, various groups are quite happy with every kind of insane scheme for making safeish arrows, ranging from carbon fiber arrows with rubber blunts to tennis ball shooting croosbows. The Belegarth guys, who are quite happy shield bashing from a ten step charge, balk at the idea of having siege engines for fear of someone getting tangled up in the mechanism. The SCA play with trebuchets but would pop a rivet if you suggested legalizing shield bashing.

At the end of the day I don't think any of them are basing their rules and practices on a clear headed scientific evaluation of what is and is not 'safe'. A lot of it just seems to be tradition, and once it got into the books it stayed that way. It's like Padded or quilted armor in D&D. A 30 layer thick padded Jack has been shown, in experiments (Check Myarmoury.Com) to be very effective at protecting from cuts and some stabbed, but you only get one point of armor for it in D&D? Why? because that's how it's always been!

Upon consideration, I have decided that the Larpers of America should get together and make some sword testing robots. One would repeatedly stab a sword into a block of ballistic gelatin until the tip failed, another would whack at a bit of platemail backed by ballistic clay until the core failed, and another would shoot different kinds of LARP arrows hundreds of times while volunteers carefully track the results.
 
Send that to the guys at Mythbusters. They can bust the myth as to what LARP weapons are really the safest. I'd love to see an episode like that.
 
jpariury said:
Mind you, I can totally understand saying "Boffers strike the balance point between form and function that we are comfortable with and prefer.", but that's worlds apart from "We're safe, they're not".

It sure is. Of course, no one has ever said "We're safe, they're not."

As I have stated in many posts about this subject that pop up every six months or so, the decision was made based on:

1. Boffer weapons are safer. Not that the others are not safe, but boffers are safer and don't hurt as much when you're hit by them.

2. Boffer weapons are cheaper. It's hard enough sometimes to get people to buy good costumes for the game because of expense, but to get them to buy expensive weapons to play as well is too much. Plus we don't want to discourage new players. Further, latex weapons would add a huge new expense to NPC camp.

3. Boffer weapons are easy to repair if they break during an event.

4. If we allowed both in, then there would be an "uneven playing field."

There's the short summary of the response every time this comes up.

Always remember: There are a thousand ways to run a LARP, which is why there seems to be a thousand different ones. A rule that is loved by some is hated by others. The Alliance game is pretty well set in its ways now (except for minor improvements and corrections as seen in the Rule Books that get updated every four or five years), so don't expect huge changes.

If you really cannot stand to play in a game that doesn't use latex weapons -- if that is more important to you than anything else -- there are other LARPs out there. I don't mean that to be mean; it's just the way it's done here. It's like going to McDonald's and complaining that they don't have pizza.
 
Fearless Leader said:
1. Boffer weapons are safer. Not that the others are not safe, but boffers are safer and don't hurt as much when you're hit by them.

I will always disagree with this statement. Boffer weapons strike with a lot more force/mass than the latex variety and the lack of control that is generated due to this results in more head shots. I have always been hurt more by them than any latex weapon I've been struck with. But as it is your game, your views are the ones that count in it so I will always abide (or push the envelope) ;) And like you said, there's other LARPs out there that allow them. That's why I attend those over Alliance whenever they fall on the same weekend.

FrankManiac said:
400 pounds charging at a combined speed of 20 miles an hour to something like .5-2 pounds, still going something like 20 miles an hour.

This is a little bit inaccurate. The speed at which a weapon travels is much higher than that, not to mention that the further out from the fulcrum point (i.e. your hands) you get from the weapon, the faster it is travelling. I have been clocked at 3 digits at my sword class with a wooden sword/boken. In addition, you also then have to take into account the mass of the blow over the dispursal(sp) of the hit. A 200 pound kid hitting another means that they will be distributing that kenetic energy over the area of contact. A boffer hits in an area of less than an inch square.

Telokh_Amdo said:
Send that to the guys at Mythbusters. They can bust the myth as to what LARP weapons are really the safest. I'd love to see an episode like that.

A good idea. I just sent it to them. I have done demonstrations where I have taken a legally crafted PVC 42" boffer sword and broken a 1x10 board with it. I've been unable to reproduce the same effect with a latex one.
 
Fearless Leader said:
It sure is. Of course, no one has ever said "We're safe, they're not."
Directly, no. Implied? Most definitely. Unless I somehow misread "Yeah, we chose safety over looks. Other LARPS choose differently."
1. Boffer weapons are safer. Not that the others are not safe, but boffers are safer and don't hurt as much when you're hit by them.
I don't know this to be true. No standard for measuring their comparative "safety" has been established or tested, to my knowledge, it's just one of those things that gets claimed repetitively until it's become dogma.
4. If we allowed both in, then there would be an "uneven playing field."
I don't know what this means. Would the people with boffers have an advantage over latex weapons, or vice versa? Is that difference substantially different as compared to players with UL cores and cloth covers vs PVC cores and heavy duct tape? Does this account for players with crappy construction technique?
The Alliance game is pretty well set in its ways now (except for minor improvements and corrections as seen in the Rule Books that get updated every four or five years), so don't expect huge changes.
I am not sure permitting commercially-available latex weapons (with a few modifications) would amount to a huge change... it's not like we're saying "spellcasters: use airsoft pistols for your spells!"
It's like going to McDonald's and complaining that they don't have pizza.
Those are some terrible mottos:
"McDonalds: we're safer than pizza!"
"Alliance: we care about your health and safety as much as McDonalds!"
:)
 
There's certainly a lot of good points on this thread and I myself would love to be able to employ a latex weapon since I feel that they would add more realism to LARP combat. However, I do understand that it's your house, your rules.

At the same time, I have always believed that the fun and the quality of the experience from such activities is not determined so much by the type of gear used, but ultimately by the quality of the people and the community with which you are sharing the experience with. And so far, just judging by the interactions I have had with my future Deadlands LARP mates on this forum, I can already tell that I will have a blast at the upcoming opener.

Just thought I'd get this in since I can smell an admin lock on this thread coming soon. ;)
 
Fearless Leader said:
If you really cannot stand to play in a game that doesn't use latex weapons -- if that is more important to you than anything else -- there are other LARPs out there. I don't mean that to be mean; it's just the way it's done here. It's like going to McDonald's and complaining that they don't have pizza.

From what I gathered latex isn't specifically banned provided that the minimum safety requirements in construction are met, and the individual chapter's rules committee allows the weapon. It is a case-by-case thing, which is perfectly fine by me.

As a potential 'McDonald's patron' I am definitely going to do my research and ask questions, particularly when a 'Happy Meal' costs $70, and I have to dress and act a certain way in order to eat my 'Happy Meal', or risk being banned from the 'McDonalds' for life. My question was answered, and I am satisfied with the result.

I did check out the site markusdark put up, and I see that there have been some quite good-looking weapons allowed, and that all creativity has not been stifled. Pointy-tips can be rounded, and foam-thickness-minimums can be achieved with somewhat realistic looking results. Obviously not 100% real looking, but real-enough to not be duct-taped pillow cases.

Thanks for all the replies everyone!
 
I'd be surprised and a little sad if they locked this... There is nothing wrong with talking about things you might want to change or don't like so much... :?
 
markusdark said:
Telokh_Amdo said:
Send that to the guys at Mythbusters. They can bust the myth as to what LARP weapons are really the safest. I'd love to see an episode like that.
A good idea. I just sent it to them. I have done demonstrations where I have taken a legally crafted PVC 42" boffer sword and broken a 1x10 board with it. I've been unable to reproduce the same effect with a latex one.
I doubt it would have the widespread appeal they generally go for. If we had a force gauge, and built an automated arm rig that swung at a consistent rate without any weapons, and a chronograph, we could probably put together a decent set of tests. :) I don't think it will change anything, though.
 
I was thinking about the same thing for testing. I have a friend who might actually have all of the necessary items to run a controlled striking test and see results.

As for changing anything, meh - each game has their requirements and that's that. But it would be nice to put to bed the whole thing about safety though. I feel that we would all find that each weapon will have their good and bad parts.
 
I don't think theres much difference in safety in general but I've been hit witht flat of some flats and it definately stung more than a standard boffer.

Of course the worse hit I've taken (outside of weapons failing and getting hit with cores) was defiantely from a standard construction alliance boffer, well mostly standard as it was spiral wrapped i belive but it was foam over pvc wrapped in duck tape. Cold night hit with that hurt bad. but it was basically a ductape truncheon at that point :)

The issue I've always seen witht he shapd blades has been that someone who doesn't know how to control the blade hits with the flat ant that hurts mor than ost boffers. But is it actually dangerous? not really.

I like Marks work more than most of the flats that don't meet nero standards actually, but if I wanted a game where the weapons looked "real" I'd find some of those crazy live steel guys :)
 
Just throwing it out there,....but what if we had some sort of certification course for the use of latex weapons?

In Airsoft, our field limit is 370fps. Now there are high-end sniper rifles out there that shoot well over 500fps. However in order to be permitted to field such a rifle, one must undergo a very strict certification course that involves being able to use the rifle properly, accuracy and proper range estimation since the minimum engagement distance is 100ft. If they pass, only then can they be a sniper.

Maybe something along those lines?
 
Its been proposed before but the fact is that you can be disarmed and anyone can pick up the weapon. Now if they weren't certified they shouldn't but it can happen.

But honestly we just allowed in rules for people to wield sticks in combat (though not to hit with them) so I think the safety argument is just hot air frankly
 
jpariury said:
4. If we allowed both in, then there would be an "uneven playing field."
I don't know what this means. Would the people with boffers have an advantage over latex weapons, or vice versa? Is that difference substantially different as compared to players with UL cores and cloth covers vs PVC cores and heavy duct tape? Does this account for players with crappy construction technique?

This was my first thought as well. I really, really doubt that the difference in playing field between latex and boffer construction will come anywhere near the difference between UL and PVC.

(Also, FrankManiac- I just wanted to let you know that I shared some of your... phrasing with my Belegarth playing brother. He thought it was hilarious. "Yup, that's us.")
 
Can't do certified to use a weapon same way you can't do shield max size by the size of the person who "uses" it, cause in the middle of a battle someone else could pick it up and use it who isn't certified, or in the shield case was half your size so now they're totally turtling.
 
The allowance for wands does call into questions some of the safety regs. Basically, Bob goes right, Ted goes left, they both go down and Bob falls on Ted's wand. Bob's got either a bad bruise or a puncture wound. Compared to a reasonably well made commercial latex weapon? *shrug*

In my experience Boffers made with PVC and pipe-insulation with duct tape can be a lot more painful than PVC with, say, a pool noodle and a cloth cover. The duct tape becomes rigid and brittle in cold weather, and the pool noodles, though they break down pretty quickly, have a wider surface area.

Hrmm. Really need to see about making that robot. I wonder if we could lease a couple of the interns from Mythbusters.
 
The first part of the topic that keeps coming back to me over and over again when I think about it, 200 pound guy in armor against 200 pound guy in armor. That is fine, if that is what you get.

Chances are 200 pound guy in armor is chasing down everything in sight, and beating on another 200 pound guy in armor, another 95 pound guy not wearing armor, and the 80 pound girl who is out for her first event. The weapons have to be safe for all conditions. That is the biggest difference between the medieval re-enactor fighting (like SCA), 'historical' fighting groups (Dag and Bel), and Nero/Alliance games. You go into the other games "KNOWING" 200 pound heavily armored guy is going to tool you. This is a game where surprise encounters and late night fights happen.

That being said, comparing the boffers and latex weapons I have fought with over 23 years (holy smokes!) the boffers offer a more "security blanket" of safety versus actual safety. The waylay/thrusting tips offer little to no stopping power to prevent somebody from jamming the weapon where you didn't want it. It offers a very slight warning to the untrained person that they should slow down.
Latex weapons are easier to handle, they are lighter (most of them are) than even ultra lights, and can be safely wielded using the same techniques Alliance newbies get. Some of them are not really safe to thrust with, but most are 'okay'. They look incredibly better than 'Joe Average' Nero guy that builds duct tape weapons. There are some good foam smiths that do very good work. They aren't really close to what the latex guys can do, but they are a lot cheaper (ok, some duct tape weapons aren't much cheaper than some of the latex ones.)

Safety being the main point, even out of armor, I would rather be hit with a latex weapon, especially in the cold/rain. It has a lot less impact when it does connect, and for those that say "the flat doesn't have 5/8" foam", swing the flat of sword and see how hard you can hit. It will be a lot less than where there is a LOT more foam than the sides. The aerodynamics of the weapons make you swing with the 'thicker foam' hitting your target and you get more control when you do swing.

I have done a bit of fighting and was a very die hard advocate of boffers. I am now a full convert to latex and the newer technology.
 
People run through the woods in the dark in this game, but we don't require people to go through and put thrusties on all the branches sticking off the tree trunks, or foam padding the rocks. We don't make people put foam padding on plate bracers because someone might catch a forearm from a backswing. Seriously, let's play and see if people are unsafe, and deal with the situations as they arise. Trust your marshals and your fellow players.
 
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