Making Ritual Levels More Useful

Wands are nothing more than rocks for casters ( see thread ). It will just be a matter of time before a bunch of high level PC's who are Cel casters start throwing thier wands and crushing the battle field and then there will be a rule change. I have seen MANY rules changed becasue of this and the wand is no different. To me the wand should have a set damage say 5 and a max number of "charges" per day say 20.
 
Octaine said:
Wands are nothing more than rocks for casters ( see thread ). It will just be a matter of time before a bunch of high level PC's who are Cel casters start throwing thier wands and crushing the battle field and then there will be a rule change. I have seen MANY rules changed becasue of this and the wand is no different. To me the wand should have a set damage say 5 and a max number of "charges" per day say 20.
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Sorry Mike but you're only seeing it from the angle of why rocks were nerfed because of how high level fighters were using it. Wands can be shattered, stolen, lost while "Rocks" were a unlimited high damage supply of stock for fighters. Celestial casters can't be boom canons if they are only using water pistols!

Justin H-
 
I really can't agree with Justin more.

Comparing Fighters with Rocks to Celestial Casters with Wands is apples and oranges.
 
Rocks = unlimited supply Wands = limited by pyramid
Rocks = one handed throwing Wands = both hands must be free.

Despite how much you may wish it to be so, rocks weren't nerfed because people were destroying wave battles with them. They were nerfed because they were unbalanced compared to other thrown weapons and archery, which all required production points to use.

There is nothing stopping a fighter from having a bag full of tagged throwing daggers or throwing stars or throwing axes that would work in the exact same manner as rocks did except for the tag. They'd even be better, as they could be silvered. You just need to spend some production to have them.

Never once in the ARC and owners discussions to change rocks did anyone say "ZOMG, rocks are destroying the game and fighters are so unbalanced because of them". Rocks were simply making other weapons that actually cost production points obsolete.

Scott
 
Celebolwa said:
I have aquestion as well. When a ritual caster creates an item, a shield for example, is there any ways to "name" the item.
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I don't think there is a game mechanic for it, but I know of at least two Uber permanent swords that got made in recent years and both got named.

I imagine that you would have to ask your Staff to actually include the name on the item tag though in order to make it both 'offical' and permanent (due to staff member changes and such.)

I can think of one concrete purpose to having a named weapon though: It makes it easier for someone to summon using the "summon artifact" ritual. I know that, technically, PC made wapons aren't considered to be artifacts, but the two permanent swords I saw made were more powerful than a lot of actual artifacts I've encountered.

I too, however, think that permanently made items SHOULD have a keen name for flavor purposes.
 
Something I have always been curious about is why duration of rituals isn't tied to the ritual casters skill. It seems like such a logical system that I always guessed it had been tried before and found wanting, but that would have been well before my time. Since it seems apropos here, I figured I'd try for an answer.
 
ohhh what if the duration was like 1 month for each level of formal magic the ritual caster had? That would also give a reason for having boat loads of formal levels other than for ridicules amounts of spell crafting. =D
 
We are definitely debating this on the Owners Board.

I think that the goal of the game is to make everyone needed. As I said in the Rule Book, the point of the game is to encourage complementing characters working together to solve the problem.

So if there is some big powerful fighter out there who has so many magic items that he/she doesn't need to bring a healer or mage along, then that goes against the stated goal of the game.

To me, the solution is not to increase the power of casters. We don't need power inflation. The solution is to make each class as unique as possible, and thus necessary for a group that wants to succeed.

The solution is to limit noncasters from being able to do anything a caster can do, and in many cases to do it better and faster than a caster.

That's why I strongly encouraged passage of the rule to make incants for magic items at least as long as someone casting the spell itself as well as other proposals currently being debated.

I don't support simply giving casters more and more power. (We already increased their powers a bit with the wand proposal -- details coming, don't worry.)

My goal is to have players say "We need to get a group together for this module. We need a celestial caster and an earth caster and a rogue to come with us or we'll lose!"
 
Coupling a few of the suggestions already brought up in this thread would do wonders for toning down the magic items without making them useless. Add the longer incants to having to hold(or wear) the item, and touching a packet to it before casting(making you put down, or sheath a weapon, or shield), and suddenly the items arent as convieniant as spells, though still more powerful because they are castable while binded(sounds funny).. Though if you need to touch a packet to the item, it could be argued that, that paticular advantage would end as well (a good thing I think). I dont mind that other classes have the spells, just that they are so much easier to use, and more convieniant. IMO these simple changes would put to bed all the arguments, besides those that the items simply shouldnt exist, which Is a bit too extreme I think... Though I do think an equivalent skill activating rit should be added, with the same restrictions.
 
I think ditching ninth level spells from being pocketable in any form (Enchant, Exp. Enchant, Spell Store, Channel) is a good start, but I'd love to see it go further.

You can make rituals more useful by not letting players do ritual-type effects without a ritual caster. No "find the rosetta stone of portal opening", no "beat up the monster for the cool magic item", etc. I don't believe that ritual casters need to have newer, more powerful things to do, I think they need to be required more often to do things in general, and that is up to plot.
 
jpariury said:
I don't believe that ritual casters need to have newer, more powerful things to do, I think they need to be required more often to do things in general, and that is up to plot.
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If there were more resources (perm and perserve scrolls/cat) then I would gladly ask/pay a rit caster to creat it.
 
Gilwing said:
If there were more resources (perm and perserve scrolls/cat) then I would gladly ask/pay a rit caster to creat it.
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Naturally, but not what I mean. I mean more in the way of needing to cast a Vision scroll to discover the BBG's weakness, or needing to pop a contact other plane, followed by a planar gate, followed by a planar asylum to rescue the Baroness, or needing a summon artifact to get a key item, and the like. Very often, plot teams do things that seem cool, but could have just as easily been covered through a ritual. I hate seeing barbarians sit around a fire and throw things in it to make funky smoke, and then suddenly be given a vision that yields more plot (as a random for instance). While I understand that people want to reward roleplay, I don't feel that the reward should be "free ritual". A module written to recover the Sword of Gilgamesh can just as easily be applied to recovering a Conjure Artifact scroll.
 
The only problem with that (and I'm not knocking the idea, mind you) is that it almost hinges the plotline completely on a die roll.

That worries me.

Esp if I have some unlucky jerk like Mike Luther marshalling the ritual.
 
jpariury said:
Gilwing said:
If there were more resources (perm and perserve scrolls/cat) then I would gladly ask/pay a rit caster to creat it.
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Naturally, but not what I mean. I mean more in the way of needing to cast a Vision scroll to discover the BBG's weakness, or needing to pop a contact other plane, followed by a planar gate, followed by a planar asylum to rescue the Baroness, or needing a summon artifact to get a key item, and the like. Very often, plot teams do things that seem cool, but could have just as easily been covered through a ritual. I hate seeing barbarians sit around a fire and throw things in it to make funky smoke, and then suddenly be given a vision that yields more plot (as a random for instance). While I understand that people want to reward roleplay, I don't feel that the reward should be "free ritual". A module written to recover the Sword of Gilgamesh can just as easily be applied to recovering a Conjure Artifact scroll.
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We all know how well that went last time. :)
 
Basically to back up what others have said: as a plot person in NH since 2003, it's always dangerous to hinge a weekend on a die roll. Certainly you can provide ritual casters with ways to make things easier for the PCs, but if they HAVE to succeed, you're putting a lot of people's weekends down to hoping against a bad die roll. For a LARP, that's really not ever a good thing.
 
Ritual levels are practically useless in small chapters.

The being said...in a small game you cant really spell craft much, you cant really cast to many rituals. In a small chapter I'd buy 5 levels of rituals and be done for the day.. then I can literally cast anything I see.
I'd use the build to increase my tree or more weapon skills or something else.

Ritual levels need to be more practical in application. In essence they are simply levels of production in a production skill. but the components in that production skill in a small chapter are virtually non-existant. I mean I might be able to use an Invest or something small here and there but really.. is that the point of em?

Im not sure adding new skills is the answer.. I'm not sure wands are going to be the answer but something should be done.. otherwise its a skill in a small game that just soaks up your build points.

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I agree with Mike and others however, 9th level spells shouldnt be activatable items and the incants should be <Activate "Dragon's Breath"> I call forth a Dragon's Breath.
 
tieran said:
The only problem with that (and I'm not knocking the idea, mind you) is that it almost hinges the plotline completely on a die roll.
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Only if the plot team wants it to. As a plotster off and on for the past dozen years or so, I have no issue with auto-successing a ritual that is part of a plotline and is being cast by someone with significantly more levels that the minimum needed for 90% success. I also have no issue with creating more plot based on a failed die roll or *ahem* someone forgetting the name of what they should be summoning.

It seems like some people feel that plot auto-dictating the result of a ritual is somehow wrong or cheesy. I feel that it's an underused facet of the game. I'd suggest that when the ritual is an expected part of the plotline, the roleplay of the ritual and the story you create should supersede any consideration of a die roll.
 
jpariury said:
tieran said:
The only problem with that (and I'm not knocking the idea, mind you) is that it almost hinges the plotline completely on a die roll.
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Only if the plot team wants it to. As a plotster off and on for the past dozen years or so, I have no issue with auto-successing a ritual that is part of a plotline and is being cast by someone with significantly more levels that the minimum needed for 90% success. I also have no issue with creating more plot based on a failed die roll or *ahem* someone forgetting the name of what they should be summoning.

It seems like some people feel that plot auto-dictating the result of a ritual is somehow wrong or cheesy. I feel that it's an underused facet of the game. I'd suggest that when the ritual is an expected part of the plotline, the roleplay of the ritual and the story you create should supersede any consideration of a die roll.
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Ignoring the ritual rules in favor of progressing plot is a potentially slippery slope which I for one would prefer not to spend too much time on.
 
jpariury said:
It seems like some people feel that plot auto-dictating the result of a ritual is somehow wrong or cheesy. I feel that it's an underused facet of the game. I'd suggest that when the ritual is an expected part of the plotline, the roleplay of the ritual and the story you create should supersede any consideration of a die roll.
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Wait wait wait, you mean this is a Role playing game instead of a Roll playing game?
 
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