The value of game days

[Sarah]

I think that's a pretty clear summation of what, from the plot side, NERO Seattle is supposed to be. If it's something you don't agree with, well, no one's forcing you to attend.

The Crossroads as designed and as it is now is a thriving port community. Where the players are is several hours walk from the actual outskirts of the city. Think of walking from the event site to the edges of Olympia to get to the actual city. Between the adventurer's quarter and the city are farms, noble estates, etc.

As to mods, we tend to run a mix of what Matt gave as the definition of "mod" and a more nebulous definition involving RP. A mod can be both things and still fit that definition well. A definied entry point could be Papa Dayeva coming into town, or farmer Phil or any other NPC, or it could be mage x coming in to town to hire a small team to retrieve his magic pants.

Faire days (or game days) are a setting which usually contains one or more mods and can advance a long term story within the setting or can be self contained. Again, we tend to do both. With the smaller attendance at game days, it does tend to favor the smaller mods and not the far reaching epic battles which are found at the events.

The thing I love about NERO is the fact that it can be many things for everyone. Some people enjoy the well defined module, some people love the political and social interaction of an RP mod. With around 35-40 people coming to an event, there is room for all of that and we do attempt to provide it. Also, some people will enjoy the more intimate nature of the game days. They offer an opportunity to advance the plot as well as personal interactions through mod requests (these do need to be made in advance with plot, and you do have to provide the NPCs).

 

[meltedwing]

So I've been having a few conversations with folks about this particular thread over the past couple of days, and one of the interesting topics that resurfaced from a few years ago was the idea of having game days where everyone npc's for a plot devised battle. Plot hands out character cards, personality write ups and whatnot, assigns tasks to certain groups and then lets the pc's decide the outcome. After which the recorded battle or scenario would make it's way into the history of the realm that the chapter takes place in, thus adding to the atmosphere of the game and allowing pc's to take part in that to a certain degree.

That kind of "war day" seems like it would be a good time. It's not Nero, but it does sound like a fun way to add to the repetoire of information the plot staff have. I could see plot members advocating certain factions in the chapter and playing a war game with the different factions, allowing the pc's to participate in the decisive battles as the npc's that are there. Obviously you wouldn't be able to do a full 100 vs 100 battle this way due to lack of people, but you could some skirmishes and maybe some infiltrations or something.

 

[Brewer]

I agree with Marc that gamedays are not really NERO, at least, in the way that I have seen the West Coast chapters run them. A NERO gameday does not produce the same game atmosphere that a full event does.

Playing in a public park reduces the level of immersion that NERO, in my opinion, is best played at. It also requires a greater suspension of disbelief - it is often played in the common "game environment" (i.e. Crossroads), but in a different OOG location (such-and-such park, for instance). It has no resemblance to the location being "physrepped", but players are required to act as though it were. At the same time, they have to pretend that they somehow managed to be in this town where any number of non-attending players live without being spotted doing whatever it is they are doing.

Alternatively, they require a Deus Ex Machina device to have them be elsewhere, outside of the reasonable amount of time. Again, this makes the world a very different one from the one played at events: at events, you get to where you are going generally by actually moving your body there, at game days, significantly more of this movement is covered by "and poof, you are there".

As Marc suggested, this creates a game in which the seriousness with which you treat the game as a whole is lowered. It turns NERO into more table-top, less live action.

I just noticed this thread. I'm not sure how many of you have noticed but most of our game days don't take place smack dab in the middle of town. Its very likely for those characters who live in the crossroads, to not be in the same part of town every day, your day to day life is going to force you to move around the ENTIRE town for what ever reason and with the amount of players we have in town means that it is more than likely you will run into one or more of them. We are not fudging anything for lack of time or space, it still takes the same amount of time for the most part as it would at an event. Thats why we changed parks. We are now at a place where we can represent the docks/beach, different parts of town and the surrounding area.

You all need to remember that this is a NEW staff with a NEW story. The game days are different, not like before where its "hey lets go to the tavern and pick up an adventure or wait for someone to come along with one". Now I don't want this to sound rude or anything but after reading through the thread and seeing all of the "well NERO Seattle...." comments, most of you have not been to ANY of the game days put on by the new staff. While I understand most of the discussions going on, maybe you should stop looking at how NS was and really look at what it is now. Yes I agree, the game days before the staff change over were very unbelievable and felt like they wern't what the PC's needed. We aren't saying things like "....ok so it takes you two hours to get there...." and poof they are there. Just please remember, this is a new NS. Give us a chance.


Brewer
Plot
Props

 

[Kauss]

I don't want this to sound rude or anything but after reading through the thread and seeing all of the "well NERO Seattle...." comments, most of you have not been to ANY of the game days put on by the new staff. While I understand most of the discussions going on, maybe you should stop looking at how NS was and really look at what it is now.

Brewer
Plot
Props

For the record, most the people who have posted anti gamedays almost never played at any gamedays before (in some cases never at all, or like once a year) and havent NPCed a gameday for quite some time. I can only presume they are asking people about the current gamedays or just guessing.

 

[meltedwing]

For the record, most the people who have posted anti gamedays almost never played at any gamedays before (in some cases never at all, or like once a year) and havent NPCed a gameday for quite some time. I can only presume they are asking people about the current gamedays or just guessing.

This is inaccurate at best. Can you cite some evidence?

Brewer:

I have been to all of one game day that was put on by the current staff. Given my limited knowledge of how the current staffs game days are being done, I would say that my singular experience with it supported my opinion of game days. I am generally willing to try them again and will continue to be willing to try them when people tell me that things have changed and that the experience is getting better. I am hoping to attend the next game day Seattle hosts just for that purpose.

 

[Sarah]

Brewer, that has to be one of the singularly, most broadly targetted insults I've read in months.

Mark, I think that going to a game day with a preconcieved notion of what it should or should not be is going to leave you disappointed everytime you go.

 

[Kauss]

This is inaccurate at best. Can you cite some evidence?

Sure, in the entire time I was running fell gamedays I saw you play mostly as an NPC, and for a long time you didnt show up at all. This applys for some others as well who are now commenting (matt played the most tho mostly NPCed and stopped showing up. I dont think JP and mark A ever PCed or NPCed at one of my games (or if they did it was a once a year thing.) In addition at the time I played many gamedays as well, and at those gameday the same thing applyed. Many of you only NPCed, and even that hasnt happend for some time.
Since the change, I have not seen any of you at one of the gamedays I run, while you may have attended one of the other gamedays I can only speak from what I have seen.

I am not speaking on non seattle gamedays, and I am not speaking of gamedays before I started running gamedays, I am speaking of the gamedays for the last year to two years only.

 

[Maxondaerth]

True, Phil, but after going back and reading Marc and JP's posts they started out adressing generalities of nero gameday structure and then only posted in direct response to other people's opinions, not attacking Seattle's gamedays at all unless you read into them and saw that what they were describing matched what you saw as being what Seattle gamedays were like either currently or at some point in the past.

 

[Kauss]

True, Phil, but after going back and reading Marc and JP's posts they started out adressing generalities of nero gameday structure and then only posted in direct response to other people's opinions, not attacking Seattle's gamedays at all unless you read into them and saw that what they were describing matched what you saw as being what Seattle gamedays were like either currently or at some point in the past.

Hum, I see where you might get that, but I dont agree. Its more that we have 3 topics here. GDs in general, GD for seattle, and general seattle plot issues.
However you are correct that I should not narrow the view to seattle gamedays attendance unless addressing that topic.

That said, all of the people posting anti gameday who play many gamedays just not in seattle I acknowledge that your view on gamedays is your own shaped by what kind of gamedays you may have played wherever you played them. I appologise for any offence, but do stand by the statment that each player has a diffrent view of what if needed for gamedays and all gamedays are diffrent in many ways.

 

[meltedwing]

Brewer, that has to be one of the singularly, most broadly targetted insults I've read in months.

Mark, I think that going to a game day with a preconcieved notion of what it should or should not be is going to leave you disappointed everytime you go.

When I go to a movie about Conan, I have some pretty good ideas about what I should experience while there. I might be pleasantly surprised by something different, but if the movie I see is about dandylion eaters and greenpeace, then I think I'll want my 2 hours back.

If I go to a Nero event/game day I have certain expectations that what I get will be generally what I've had fun doing in Nero for the past 10 years. If I get something else I might be pleasantly surprised (which has happened a few times), but could be disappointed. I generally try to keep an open mind about the things I'm going to experience because my goal is to discover whether or not it's fun. If I go intending for it to be crappy, then that's exactly what I'm going to get.

So in essence you are partially right, but partially wrong. I appreciate your comment to me.

 

[Nikos_Sonus]

Hmmmm, so many pretty flames it would be such a shame for them to go out no? Guess it's time for "someone" to throw some more gas on the fire...

But seriously, to wander back over in the direction of the original topic. Do gamedays serve a purpose? Well, I generally operate under the assumption that if something exists it serves a purpose even if we are unable to discern it or don't like it. So now that that's out of the way do gamedays serve a valid purpose? To answer that we first have to ask why NERO in the first place?

For the purposes of this argument I'll keep it simple. Run an immersive, realistic game that allows the greatest number of players the greatest amount of fun and at bare minimum pays for itself in a reasonable timeframe.

So let's start from the bottom and work our way up. Do game days make fiscal sense? Oh hell yes! From a purely profit driven model you would make more money running primarily gamedays with only a few weekend events. Gamedays cost the chapter nothing to run except the time of it's staff which it has already laid exclusive claim to (along with their souls). There're no site fees, minimal gas, and you already have insurance since you need that for the weekend events. Even if you have only 10 players, charge them $10 a head and allow NPCs for free you've just made $100 with next to no additional outlay. That's practically $100 pure profit. Do this ten times over the course of a year and that's an extra $1000 for the chapter practically free! Even do it five times and that's a good chunk of your insurance for a year, or an entire costuming/props budget for 6 months to a year. This money you're making benefits the chapter in hundreds of ways, the ones I've just mentioned being only a few. After all, the more money you have to spend on props and costuming the more immersive the game is especially the weekend events. Remember how cool the Dragon was during the Strega battle, or the crypts and tombs that got cooler when some tarps, tables, and coffins went up? Those things cost money. Gamedays are one of, if not the most, cost effective ways for a chapter to get said greenbacks. So, I would argue that from a financial standpoint not only do gamedays make sense you would, as an owner, be neglecting your chapter if you did not incorporate them into your business model.

Of course, there are other dimensions to the situation aside from the fiscal. Do gamedays detract from the game overall? I think the previous posts have *ahem* eloquently and clearly demonstrated the answer to be "yes and no". Some people feel gamedays detract from the seriousness and immersiveness of the game. This is valid, and thankfully one can go their entire NERO career without ever attending a gameday and still enjoy more plot than they could sort through in two lifetimes as I am living proof having attended a grand total of three gamedays in my life and been plot/NPC for all of them. You do not need to go to gamedays and so they never need to detract from your NERO experience if this is your mindset. Granted you may not get the XP and loot of those who attend, but you can always take the money you saved by not going to gamedays, spend it on stuff the chapter needs and use the gobbies to blanket said gamedays and purchase some IG shinies thus assuring your equality with the gameday attending players. Ah, I love the smell of equality in the morning, it smells like...*ahem* yes well. Have some people found gamedays to be useful and valid endeavors that enrich their NERO experience? Absolutely! Gamedays are tailor made for things like excursions to the Fell Realm, strikes/raids against (insert enemy du jour), and other important plot points that occur outside the normal IG location. I would daresay they add to the immersiveness of the game as you don't have the experience of wandering around the site, walking up to a skirmish to join and being told they're several thousand miles away. Instead you get as many of those battles as feasible done ahead of time so when the weekender comes you can focus on things nearer to home that everyone has the chance to participate in. This is just one good use of a gameday I can think of. Others have already pointed out how gamedays allow characters who are sometimes lost in weekend events a chance to take center stage, save the day and get the big shiny...hell there are some weekend games when any shiny would be nice eh? How they put local players deeper into important plotlines like the Fell or the Finfolk, rewarding them for their unflagging support of their local chapter. These are all valid reasons for having gamedays. Beautifully, there is a way to allow both sides to have their cake and eat it. Run gamedays; those who choose not to attend are not forced to, nor are they disadvantaged by their choice, and those who choose to can have a good time, and get their dork fix. Does this satisfy the first criteria I outlined allowing the most fun for the most people? I would argue yes.

Finally, do gamedays impair the immersiveness of NERO? No more so than having a bunch of smokers hanging around outside the tavern during weekend events talking about WoW. No more so than people walking around site in plainclothes because they're bored being IG or want a break. No more so than people using white sneakers and jeans for their garb. Hell, the gameday happens away from the weekend event (which I do agree is the prime focus of the NERO experience) so I'd say it detracts less from the immersiveness of the experience than any of the aforementioned behaviors all of which have been commonplace at every weekender I've ever attended. Which makes me wonder why gamedays are the scapegoat? That's a road I won't walk down at this point.

In closing, are gamedays allowable under the definition I've used for the purpose of NERO "Run an immersive, realistic game that allows the greatest number of players the greatest amount of fun and at bare minimum pays for itself in a reasonable timeframe.". I'd say I've made a strong case for this. From a financial standpoint you're being fiscally irresponsible if you simply ignore gamedays, and from an ideological view gamedays do not inherently detract from the fun or immersiveness of the game. So, while the number and type of gamedays should certainly be tailored to the tastes of the local chapter I have yet to see any convincing argument abstract or practical as to why gamedays are inappropriate or irresponsible, or generally undesirable. They are a useful tool for each chapter to use as it sees fit.

You may now applaud.

 

[Kauss]

You may now applaud.

Much applauding

 

[Sarah]

Jonno, if I weren't dating Dan I'd ask if I could have your babies.

 

[jpariury]

Now I don't want this to sound rude or anything but after reading through the thread and seeing all of the "well NERO Seattle...." comments, most of you have not been to ANY of the game days put on by the new staff. While I understand most of the discussions going on, maybe you should stop looking at how NS was and really look at what it is now. Yes I agree, the game days before the staff change over were very unbelievable and felt like they wern't what the PC's needed. We aren't saying things like "....ok so it takes you two hours to get there...." and poof they are there. Just please remember, this is a new NS. Give us a chance.

To be clear, my initial post is about game days in general, as is this one. My second post was to clarify what someone else was referring to. I have made no statements in relation to game days directed at NERO Seattle. Those statements are equally applicable to NERO Oregon (or any other chapter I've attended).

The way a game day is played differs from the way an event is played. They are not the same experience. As was noted, game days let players burn through their skill trees all on one mod. Is it fun? Sure, who doesn't want to be able to bring out the whoop-***? Does it make sense within the context of the game? Not really. Events include total immersion of the character and resource use. Do you throw a death when you might need a life spell in the morning? How many skills do you expend on monster X when there's the chance of a goblin attack in an hour? A game day, on the other hand, creates an OOG understanding of what will happen five hours from now, which is then brought into the game. It treads that fine line of metagaming that does not (ideally) occur at events. Events are about the day-to-day lives of the characters, which engenders greater focus on how the character lives in the world created by the plot team, while game days are about "If I didn't have to worry about later, what would I do right now?".

As was mentioned, many game days that I have experienced in chapters around the nation occur at public parks, where there is very little time and/or ability to decorate the area. While there is an effort to be a bit remote from other attendees, it is neither enforcable, and often those locations are equally in demand for other outdoor activites (biking, hiking, etc.) Things like Holly's crypt mod would not have been nearly so cool had she just drawn some lines in the dirt and said "There is a wall here, and some stuff in this corner", etc. The fact that we approached a building with grave markers in the dirt, torches in assorted corners, and a coffin on a platform in the middle of a room meant that instead of having to keep in mind "I can go here and see this, but I can't see that", we could just react to what was there. Without a semi-permanent site where staff can go into the location well in advance of the players and set things up, this will consistently require more effort "pretend X is Y", rather than simply playing with what is there.

NERO emerged from Weekend Warriors. WW was a mod-in-a-day game. People showed up with their character cards, ran the dungeon or beat the bad guy, and went home at the end of the day. There was a prelude written by the person running it, then the game happened, and an aftermath was written. The first growths of NERO came about when the people running the game decided to goof off and roleplay their assorted folio of fiends interacting with one another outside of the players' presence.

Game days, as a general rule, occur in the same old "wait until the PCs reach X" format that NERO had originally grown out of and away from. The premise of NERO, as outlined in its origins is that the world is going on without a marshal overseeing who does what. For the most part, game days cannot be run without letting a marshal know where you are going and what you are doing. Sure, you can go off somewhere else in the woods and count your pudding jars or what not, but then you may as well have not shown up to the game. Game days are not run as an environment, but as a series of unfortunate events (with all due apologies to Lemony Snickett) that characters respond to. The location, the resources, and the preparation available lend themselves to being the old Weekend Warriors, and less about the world of NERO.

Ultimately, the ideal NERO is one in which players do not need to ask marshals what they see around them, and tell them what they are doing to it. The more you reduce that need, the more you approach the ideal envisioned by the designers. As cited here, "After the event, we spoke to Ford about writing a game system where everyone could play instead of just a small group being followed by a marshal."

It is on those grounds: resources, preparation, level of immersion, location, and stated intent of the designers, that I agree with Marc's original statement.

 

[Cerulean Jax]

**applauding with both hands!!**

Hmmmm, so many pretty flames it would be such a shame for them to go out no? Guess it's time for "someone" to throw some more gas on the fire...

But seriously, to wander back over in the direction of the original topic. Do gamedays serve a purpose? Well, I generally operate under the assumption that if something exists it serves a purpose even if we are unable to discern it or don't like it. So now that that's out of the way do gamedays serve a valid purpose? To answer that we first have to ask why NERO in the first place?

For the purposes of this argument I'll keep it simple. Run an immersive, realistic game that allows the greatest number of players the greatest amount of fun and at bare minimum pays for itself in a reasonable timeframe.

So let's start from the bottom and work our way up. Do game days make fiscal sense? Oh hell yes! From a purely profit driven model you would make more money running primarily gamedays with only a few weekend events. Gamedays cost the chapter nothing to run except the time of it's staff which it has already laid exclusive claim to (along with their souls). There're no site fees, minimal gas, and you already have insurance since you need that for the weekend events. Even if you have only 10 players, charge them $10 a head and allow NPCs for free you've just made $100 with next to no additional outlay. That's practically $100 pure profit. Do this ten times over the course of a year and that's an extra $1000 for the chapter practically free! Even do it five times and that's a good chunk of your insurance for a year, or an entire costuming/props budget for 6 months to a year. This money you're making benefits the chapter in hundreds of ways, the ones I've just mentioned being only a few. After all, the more money you have to spend on props and costuming the more immersive the game is especially the weekend events. Remember how cool the Dragon was during the Strega battle, or the crypts and tombs that got cooler when some tarps, tables, and coffins went up? Those things cost money. Gamedays are one of, if not the most, cost effective ways for a chapter to get said greenbacks. So, I would argue that from a financial standpoint not only do gamedays make sense you would, as an owner, be neglecting your chapter if you did not incorporate them into your business model.

Of course, there are other dimensions to the situation aside from the fiscal. Do gamedays detract from the game overall? I think the previous posts have *ahem* eloquently and clearly demonstrated the answer to be "yes and no". Some people feel gamedays detract from the seriousness and immersiveness of the game. This is valid, and thankfully one can go their entire NERO career without ever attending a gameday and still enjoy more plot than they could sort through in two lifetimes as I am living proof having attended a grand total of three gamedays in my life and been plot/NPC for all of them. You do not need to go to gamedays and so they never need to detract from your NERO experience if this is your mindset. Granted you may not get the XP and loot of those who attend, but you can always take the money you saved by not going to gamedays, spend it on stuff the chapter needs and use the gobbies to blanket said gamedays and purchase some IG shinies thus assuring your equality with the gameday attending players. Ah, I love the smell of equality in the morning, it smells like...*ahem* yes well. Have some people found gamedays to be useful and valid endeavors that enrich their NERO experience? Absolutely! Gamedays are tailor made for things like excursions to the Fell Realm, strikes/raids against (insert enemy du jour), and other important plot points that occur outside the normal IG location. I would daresay they add to the immersiveness of the game as you don't have the experience of wandering around the site, walking up to a skirmish to join and being told they're several thousand miles away. Instead you get as many of those battles as feasible done ahead of time so when the weekender comes you can focus on things nearer to home that everyone has the chance to participate in. This is just one good use of a gameday I can think of. Others have already pointed out how gamedays allow characters who are sometimes lost in weekend events a chance to take center stage, save the day and get the big shiny...hell there are some weekend games when any shiny would be nice eh? How they put local players deeper into important plotlines like the Fell or the Finfolk, rewarding them for their unflagging support of their local chapter. These are all valid reasons for having gamedays. Beautifully, there is a way to allow both sides to have their cake and eat it. Run gamedays; those who choose not to attend are not forced to, nor are they disadvantaged by their choice, and those who choose to can have a good time, and get their dork fix. Does this satisfy the first criteria I outlined allowing the most fun for the most people? I would argue yes.

Finally, do gamedays impair the immersiveness of NERO? No more so than having a bunch of smokers hanging around outside the tavern during weekend events talking about WoW. No more so than people walking around site in plainclothes because they're bored being IG or want a break. No more so than people using white sneakers and jeans for their garb. Hell, the gameday happens away from the weekend event (which I do agree is the prime focus of the NERO experience) so I'd say it detracts less from the immersiveness of the experience than any of the aforementioned behaviors all of which have been commonplace at every weekender I've ever attended. Which makes me wonder why gamedays are the scapegoat? That's a road I won't walk down at this point.

In closing, are gamedays allowable under the definition I've used for the purpose of NERO "Run an immersive, realistic game that allows the greatest number of players the greatest amount of fun and at bare minimum pays for itself in a reasonable timeframe.". I'd say I've made a strong case for this. From a financial standpoint you're being fiscally irresponsible if you simply ignore gamedays, and from an ideological view gamedays do not inherently detract from the fun or immersiveness of the game. So, while the number and type of gamedays should certainly be tailored to the tastes of the local chapter I have yet to see any convincing argument abstract or practical as to why gamedays are inappropriate or irresponsible, or generally undesirable. They are a useful tool for each chapter to use as it sees fit.

You may now applaud.

 

[Egor]

For the record I have only been to one Nero Seattle Game day ever and it was the most recent one on december 30th. It was fairly well organized and Plot made sure to bring everything they needed to run it. We fought some Trolls met a guy who sold us potions which I would assume was to suppliment the fact that we had not a healing spell between the three of us. (I wish I had bought his whole stock he had very good prices). This was a good idea and it kept us alive through the game day. The main plot was very short though and it gave me a heads up about what to expect from the event but because I was not in with the right group of PC's I was not able to do much other than repeat what I had seen. This is not plots fault they cannot control the players. I also live in Oregon so it was a long drive up and back thats the main reason I am rarely seen at Seattle game days. I thought the game day was well run and I had fun beating the crap out of trolls with my dreaded butterknife. The site is a good one with alot of area. My only complaint was that the game day was very short. Personnaly I did not find much value in the information I had gained at the game day for the event. Once again this is probably also due to the group of PC's I am with. Was it worth the many hour drive and the gas up there? I would have to say no not for me spending an entire day to play for a couple of hours is not worth it for me.

Nero Oregon operates within a 20-30 minute drive of me. So I go to as many of those gamedays as I can. I have only NPC'd in the gamedays down here but I always find them fun and worthwile. Also NPCing down here is free which means I have almost no excuse not to go to the gamedays if I have the time to. Even If it did cost money I would still go to them because I enjoy them and it's a chance to get a dose of nero in between events.

One great thing about the new NS staff that I like is that they are way more into Phys repping things. Even at a short game day they had an awsome mask phsyrep for Coldsnap to have crammed on her face. Or the pumpkin Mod at the event before last I did not go on the mod but somehow I ended up with a pumpkin in my truck which came home with me. This kind of thing was not so prevelent before and I appreciate it and it adds alot to the game.

As to the value of all game days I think if run correctly game days can be loads of fun. Different people have different ideas of what that fun is and ultimatly you can't mold the game to please everyone it just can't be done. One thing that I enjoy the most is random Mods. Mods that have nothing to do with the main plot can often be more fun and exciting than whats going on with the main plot. They also say that there are other things happening in the world besides the main plot. I would be prefectly happy if gamedays have nothing to do with main plot. In my personal opinion I think it would be good if they had nothing to do with main plot. I have enjoyed main plot gamedays I just think that main plot could be better run at events where it has time to pan out and be explored. Game days offer a very short period of time to run plot in where as events offer several days of time to hammer out plotlines. Also main plotlines must be written by of course main plot members. Mods can be written and submitted by anyone. If game days were set as places to run random mods that anyone can write up it would give plot more time to focus on main plotlines and allow players to be entertained between events. Also I know that many people out there have great imaginations but don't want to go onto plot because they love to play their charachter. That would give them a chance to have fun writing things but also allow them to keep playing their characters at main events. Me and my group of freinds once ran a D&D campaign called "The Baton Campaign" each person would DM the campaign in turn and it kept the plot very fresh because we had a different person running it every time. This could be done by announcements on the tavern wall like "Wanted Adventurers to kill wolfs that are attacking sheep" and then find out IG who will be coming to deal with the wolfs and those people show up to the game day. This would assure the attendence of those individuals and IG get them itno the mod. Those are my thoughts on game days.

I also want to say that Nero is a game and it's not something we should be fighting over. This thread has gotten slightly nasty and I see no reason why it should be. We are not here to have a fight about who's right or who's wrong this thread is here so that we can discuss and improve the game. Just remember that it's a game we are all just here to have fun no need to be evil about anything.

Jeremy Huff

 

[Masticon]

Finally, do gamedays impair the immersiveness of NERO? No more so than having a bunch of smokers hanging around outside the tavern during weekend events talking about WoW. No more so than people walking around site in plainclothes because they're bored being IG or want a break. No more so than people using white sneakers and jeans for their garb. Hell, the gameday happens away from the weekend event (which I do agree is the prime focus of the NERO experience) so I'd say it detracts less from the immersiveness of the experience than any of the aforementioned behaviors all of which have been commonplace at every weekender I've ever attended. Which makes me wonder why gamedays are the scapegoat? That's a road I won't walk down at this point.

QUOTE]


Jonno,
Good post over all but there are a few points I'd like to disagree on.

First off the above notion that just because people hurt the imersive environment at events doesn't mean it's ok. All of the above behavior may be somewhat common but it should be heavily discouraged by plot, staff and other players. It is avoidable at an event. It is not avoidable at a game day. infact it is almost guranteed at a game day unless you have a VERY secluded location to run your games.

Secondly, the idea that there is no real disadvantage to NOT going to game days is build on the premise that nothing important happens at game days. In my experience plot hooks for mods and plots at events are frequently presented at game days. I've often found it difficult to get involved in plots in games where the majority of hooks were presented at game days. So by attending a game day you are favored by plot and recieve mods at events. By avoiding game days you are punished by not being involved in plot at events.

I will agree, however, that game days are a good way for a new chapter to make a quick buck and a good way to introduce new players to the game. But I think expecting experienced players to come to game days for much of anything more than moral support is folly.

For the record, most the people who have posted anti gamedays almost never played at any gamedays before (in some cases never at all, or like once a year) and havent NPCed a gameday for quite some time. I can only presume they are asking people about the current gamedays or just guessing.

While I haven't been to very many of YOUR game days, I have been to at least a few. But I wasn't specifically speaking of your game days. I'm speaking of game days in general. I've probably PCd close to 50 game days in three different chapters NPCd at 20 or so and run about 20 as head of plot. I've also played around 40 to 50 events as both a PC and NPC in four different chapters. So I think I speak with atleast some authority when I give my opinion on game days and events. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss me as someone who has "never" played a game day.

 

[Kauss]

While I haven't been to very many of YOUR game days, I have been to at least a few. But I wasn't specifically speaking of your game days. I'm speaking of game days in general. I've probably PCd close to 50 game days in three different chapters NPCd at 20 or so and run about 20 as head of plot. I've also played around 40 to 50 events as both a PC and NPC in four different chapters. So I think I speak with atleast some authority when I give my opinion on game days and events. I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss me as someone who has "never" played a game day.

Note my correction please.
"Hum, I see where you might get that, but I dont agree. Its more that we have 3 topics here. GDs in general, GD for seattle, and general seattle plot issues.
However you are correct that I should not narrow the view to seattle gamedays attendance unless addressing that topic.

That said, all of the people posting anti gameday who play many gamedays just not in seattle I acknowledge that your view on gamedays is your own shaped by what kind of gamedays you may have played wherever you played them. I appologise for any offence, but do stand by the statment that each player has a diffrent view of what if needed for gamedays and all gamedays are diffrent in many ways."
Taken from an earlyer post.

 

[Cerulean Jax]

Secondly, the idea that there is no real disadvantage to NOT going to game days is build on the premise that nothing important happens at game days. In my experience plot hooks for mods and plots at events are frequently presented at game days. I've often found it difficult to get involved in plots in games where the majority of hooks were presented at game days. So by attending a game day you are favored by plot and recieve mods at events. By avoiding game days you are punished by not being involved in plot at events.

I think viewing it as a punishment is rather presumptious; if a player in a tabletop game attends a game session once every three or four months, and other players play every other weekend, is it fair for the occasinal player to gripe about not understanding what's going on with plot or why he's not in on all of the important events? No one is making anyone NOT attend, so if you forgo the chance to be involved in a plot hook, it's your own doing, not some 'punishment'.

 

[Nikos_Sonus]

Well Marc,

My point with this;

"Finally, do gamedays impair the immersiveness of NERO? No more so than having a bunch of smokers hanging around outside the tavern during weekend events talking about WoW. No more so than people walking around site in plainclothes because they're bored being IG or want a break. No more so than people using white sneakers and jeans for their garb. Hell, the gameday happens away from the weekend event (which I do agree is the prime focus of the NERO experience) so I'd say it detracts less from the immersiveness of the experience than any of the aforementioned behaviors all of which have been commonplace at every weekender I've ever attended. Which makes me wonder why gamedays are the scapegoat? That's a road I won't walk down at this point."

Was not that any of the listed activities are OK. Rather that gamedays A) detract less from the overall immersiveness of NERO and the experience of NERO than the other behaviors I mentioned. Which leads me to speculate on the purpose of attacking or generally badmouthing gamedays while tolerating or participating in the aforementioned activities. After all, with gamedays you can at least point to the various ways in which they aid the NERO experience (as I have) while the other behaviors I've listed I fail to see any benefit the game and gamers as a group derive from them. and B) I would see it as damaging to my own credibility if I were to opine negatively about an activity which objectively benefits NERO in the ways I listed. While remaining silent on activities which are both subjectively and objectively damaging to the game. In the hierarchy of NERo sins I would definitely hold gamedays to be the lesser of evils and forgo eliminating them in favor of dealing with the aforementioned more pressing concerns.

In reply to your assertion about penalties for non attendance I would offer this. In my time in NERO I have, as previously mentioned, been to precious few gamedays. Three in total. Which is far less than your own attendance numbers which you have supplied. In this time I have found few problems involving myself in a range of plots. Have I been involved in all the plots out there? Not by a long shot, it would be unreasonable of me to expect it. Have I been involved in all the plots I reasonably could have been? Nope, however, I tend to attribute it to my own lack of engagement at various events. Not my lack of attendance at previous gamedays. If I wanted to involve myself in a plot I never had any problems doing so in spite of not being at this that or the other gameday where this that or the other plot point was revealed. Is the scenario you offer possible? Certainly. However,I would attribute such an occurence to poor plot work before I would assume it to be an inherent quality of gamedays. In light of my own experiences and yours doesn't it seem more reasonable to conclude involvement or lack thereof in a given plot has less to do with gameday attendance and more to do with an individuals undertakings in relation to a given plotline. I would argue that with you reporting attendance at over a hundred game days and still experiencing moments of feeling excluded from plotlines while I have attended all of three gamedays and also report the same feeling to conclude a relation between gameday attendance and plotline involvement is unwarranted. In short, I see no compelling evidence to suggest those who do not attend gamedays are neccesarily punished by their lack of attendance with lack of involvement in plotlines during weekend events.

Finally, my point has always been that some people feel gamedays are good, others feel they are bad. This is fine, both styles of play can coexist in harmony in the same chapter. This is also purely subjective and thus there is no right or correct answer. There are simply a whole bunch of opinions. Additionally, objectively, there are excellent reasons to have gamedays as they represent an extremely cost effective way to increase chapter income and attendance which benefits the chapter and all it's members in a myriad of ways. Again, from a simple business standpoint any owner who ignores such a lucrative income source is acting in an extremely unethical way towards his or her stakeholders. Which leads me inevitably to my previous conclusion that gamedays are a useful tool whose use should be tailored to and determined by the individual chapter using it.