The people vs. arcane armor

Durnic

Squire
Owner
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Then I was told wrong but I appreciate the correction. :oops:
 
Just out of curiosity, is there anyone who does not agree with the following statement?

"The loss of mobility, potential health concerns and real world cost of physical armor combine to make it undesirable when compared with arcane armor of similar rating. This situation is not ideal and should be addressed in some way."
 
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
Just out of curiosity, is there anyone who does not agree with the following statement?

"The loss of mobility, potential health concerns and real world cost of physical armor combine to make it undesirable when compared with arcane armor of similar rating. This situation is not ideal and should be addressed in some way."
I agree, but the same could be said for AA 30 vs. 1pt Light Leather.
It comes down to more of how much is reasonable: 5pt difference, 10pt?
 
SkollWolfrun said:
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
Just out of curiosity, is there anyone who does not agree with the following statement?

"The loss of mobility, potential health concerns and real world cost of physical armor combine to make it undesirable when compared with arcane armor of similar rating. This situation is not ideal and should be addressed in some way."
I agree, but the same could be said for AA 30 vs. 1pt Light Leather.
It comes down to more of how much is reasonable: 5pt difference, 10pt?
I don't know what the best solution would be, whether it's increasing the armor cap, loosening material restrictions, reducing the value of arcane armor either in armor points directly or in some other fashion or something else entirely. I'm just trying to see if there really is a consensus (in this thread, anyway) that arcane armor is so much stronger than physical armor that something should be tried.
 

Avaran

Baron
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
I don't know what the best solution would be, whether it's increasing the armor cap, loosening material restrictions, reducing the value of arcane armor either in armor points directly or in some other fashion or something else entirely. I'm just trying to see if there really is a consensus (in this thread, anyway) that arcane armor is so much stronger than physical armor that something should be tried.
One big positive of AA is being able to travel long distances without having to worry about transporting (and paying extra fees, where applicable) all that extra armor.

I don't think anything should be done with AA; I'd prefer to see material guidelines looked at and changed (with the idea that we're a representative combat game) so that it's easier to get higher armor values with lighter materials.
 

MaxIrons

Squire
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Avaran said:
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
I don't know what the best solution would be, whether it's increasing the armor cap, loosening material restrictions, reducing the value of arcane armor either in armor points directly or in some other fashion or something else entirely. I'm just trying to see if there really is a consensus (in this thread, anyway) that arcane armor is so much stronger than physical armor that something should be tried.
One big positive of AA is being able to travel long distances without having to worry about transporting (and paying extra fees, where applicable) all that extra armor.

I don't think anything should be done with AA; I'd prefer to see material guidelines looked at and changed (with the idea that we're a representative combat game) so that it's easier to get higher armor values with lighter materials.
Well I didn't want to cross contaminate but since the thread has gone this way: http://alliancelarp.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=214&t=16656

That and I'd like to see AA be a +5/+10/+15 stacker on standard armor, like a permanent Shield spell.
 

Thorador

Rogue
I would like a combinations of relaxed materials rules, and rituals specific for targets of armor. Such as the Guard after refit idea. As well as others. Also in game craftsmanship bonuses for getting more armor then is represented through blacksmithing and the like. Though perhaps not all of them at once, but maybe.
These kinds of charges would increase the value of real armor to be more in line balance wise with arcane.

I just wish someone that wore really cool armor and expended in game resources on increasing their defensives could actually be a tank, without having to resort in giant cloak and bane walls.
 

Durnic

Squire
Owner
Oregon Staff
Marshal
Thorador said:
I would like a combinations of relaxed materials rules, and rituals specific for targets of armor. Such as the Guard after refit idea. As well as others. Also in game craftsmanship bonuses for getting more armor then is represented through blacksmithing and the like. Though perhaps not all of them at once, but maybe.
These kinds of charges would increase the value of real armor to be more in line balance wise with arcane.

I just wish someone that wore really cool armor and expended in game resources on increasing their defensives could actually be a tank, without having to resort in giant cloak and bane walls.
I think you and I are on the exact same page:

I don't want to see AA nerfed, I want it to be a viable option. I just want to see physical real-world armor buffed whether that be through the relaxation of material requirements, the addition of armor-specific rituals or both. Preferably the latter.
 

markusdark

Knight
I'd prefer to see real armor be a damage reduction or threshold type of formula. Not sure how the translation should be as I"m not well versed in the balance issue but for instance, taking current armor points and dividing that by three, giving you a threshold/DR of that amount. So a 30 point suit of armor would reduce every blow by 10 points. I know I know, more math but it would definitely make the armor worth something now.
 

Kitaruen

Squire
Owner
Chicago Staff
markusdark said:
I'd prefer to see real armor be a damage reduction or threshold type of formula. Not sure how the translation should be as I"m not well versed in the balance issue but for instance, taking current armor points and dividing that by three, giving you a threshold/DR of that amount. So a 30 point suit of armor would reduce every blow by 10 points. I know I know, more math but it would definitely make the armor worth something now.
I might be able to agree with armor points divided by say 10 so with a forty suit you have a PA 4...I could maybe get behind that. However as suggested it literally destroys scaling to a point of absurdity. Ofcourse that was just an intitial brainstorm but I for one dont want to see a constant effect such as that for physical armor.
 

Pantzike

Scout
You could possibly do something along the lines of the bonus you get for a large elemental burst pool.

If your armor is currently "at max" of 40, you get the PA 4 (or whatever bonus is granted)

Once it takes damage it falls to the next category down (30-40) only granting PA 3 (or whatever bonus is decided on)

Essentially, as your armor gets beat on, it loses it's special powers. (This is similar to the +wand damage you get for a high burst pool)

Just my 2 cents.

My concern about the auto PA is it's relatively easy to get 20 points of armor, and the effects this would have on a low level game where a high percentage of the monsters have small swings.

I don't think it would impact the mid-high level games quite as much.
 

A.mungo

Artisan
Marshal
I'm just spit balling here but what about raising the material value as it stands now by 1 for each category with 1 being soft leather at a minimum (no 25 point tailored costumes). Raise the maximum armor to 50, and have wear extra armor be worth three points per purchase instead of one. Would this help without adding "junk" rules to the systems we currently have in place? (Junk rules is a reference to adding additional powers for the sake of upscaling a preexisting item and not a slight directed at anyone.)
 

Durnic

Squire
Owner
Oregon Staff
Marshal
A.mungo said:
I'm just spit balling here but what about raising the material value as it stands now by 1 for each category with 1 being soft leather at a minimum (no 25 point tailored costumes). Raise the maximum armor to 50, and have wear extra armor be worth three points per purchase instead of one. Would this help without adding "junk" rules to the systems we currently have in place? (Junk rules is a reference to adding additional powers for the sake of upscaling a preexisting item and not a slight directed at anyone.)
With those kinds of changes in values, wouldn't all of the classes have to have an increase in their base armor level? Otherwise even a fighter would have to spend 45 build to get from 35 to 50 armor. Or did you mean that Wear Extra Armor would be worth three armor points?
 

A.mungo

Artisan
Marshal
Yeah, the second part where WEA is worth three. It makes it so that it evens out pretty close. It also adds a lot to the lower level game where you have less defensive abilities and limited powers. By the time you get to the teens its assumed that you can make the choice between physical vs. Arcane.
 

Thorador

Rogue
PA/Threshold is a bad idea from a scaling side, as it is either on or off, and at the end of the day is poiintless at high levels, and amazing at low levels, making it not scale very well. They 1-3 auto Guards, through possible enchantments if need be, would allow armor to scale because at the low end game, it is blocking 1-3 hits of 2s or 4s, at the high end it is blocking 10s or 15s, making the those protections have the same relative value for all the levels.
Admitly in relations to your total armor the guards become more valuable at higher levels, but you still would have to wear the armor, making you less mobile and more vulnerable. to the take out effects at high levels, so it is fairly even trade off.

Also note, this wouldn't make you have any additional protection vs spells, or elemental effects, so it wouldn;t effect evoc scaling and so on like increasing armor would.
 

Avaran

Baron
Thorador said:
PA/Threshold is a bad idea from a scaling side, as it is either on or off, and at the end of the day is poiintless at high levels, and amazing at low levels, making it not scale very well. They 1-3 auto Guards, through possible enchantments if need be, would allow armor to scale because at the low end game, it is blocking 1-3 hits of 2s or 4s, at the high end it is blocking 10s or 15s, making the those protections have the same relative value for all the levels.
Admitly in relations to your total armor the guards become more valuable at higher levels, but you still would have to wear the armor, making you less mobile and more vulnerable. to the take out effects at high levels, so it is fairly even trade off.

Also note, this wouldn't make you have any additional protection vs spells, or elemental effects, so it wouldn;t effect evoc scaling and so on like increasing armor would.
I do not see how adding weapon guards to physical armor is going to solve the fundamental problem of heavy materials being cumbersome and ultimately detrimental. At the higher levels of play, there tends to be a focus on take-out effects (obviously not ALWAYS, but more often than not). It's not going to make it any easier to physically get out of the way of spell or alchemy packets.
 

markusdark

Knight
I suppose an easy way to do it is to give physical armor something like 1 innate parry/ per X points, dodge per Y points - representing the ability to use the armor to block incoming attacks. This would help remove some of the immobility issues. Or give blacksmiths an easier way to 'work' these into a suit.

You have 40 points of armor
A dodge can be put onto 10
A parry can be put onto 5
etc...

Blacksmith can tool whatever he needs into it. So 4 dodges or 2 dodges and 4 parries, etc. Once they're expended, he has to use production points again to retool them into it.
 

Lurin

Duke
Avaran said:
Thorador said:
PA/Threshold is a bad idea from a scaling side, as it is either on or off, and at the end of the day is poiintless at high levels, and amazing at low levels, making it not scale very well. They 1-3 auto Guards, through possible enchantments if need be, would allow armor to scale because at the low end game, it is blocking 1-3 hits of 2s or 4s, at the high end it is blocking 10s or 15s, making the those protections have the same relative value for all the levels.
Admitly in relations to your total armor the guards become more valuable at higher levels, but you still would have to wear the armor, making you less mobile and more vulnerable. to the take out effects at high levels, so it is fairly even trade off.

Also note, this wouldn't make you have any additional protection vs spells, or elemental effects, so it wouldn;t effect evoc scaling and so on like increasing armor would.
I do not see how adding weapon guards to physical armor is going to solve the fundamental problem of heavy materials being cumbersome and ultimately detrimental. At the higher levels of play, there tends to be a focus on take-out effects (obviously not ALWAYS, but more often than not). It's not going to make it any easier to physically get out of the way of spell or alchemy packets.
It wouldn't solve that, but it would make armor scale much much better. a 3x Physical guard (has to be used at first opportunity, any blade attack) is as useful to the high level fighting things swinging 23 death as it is to the newbie facing 5 disease. (3 extra hits in either case) That said, it would be a significant change to our system to implement effects like that and I have problem with it stopping blade skills so maybe an evade effect that is a guard would be best. (first 3 non-special hits)
 
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