The people vs. arcane armor

Artos

Artisan
As someone who wore a 40 point suit of armor regularly, I completely agree with the statement that AA is just better than physical armor. There isn't enough of a benefit to wearing an extra 40-50+ pounds of armor for 10 points of protection beyond what you can get with AA. Switching to a 20 point AA from my 40 point rep, I spent less time dead and needed less healing because I could dodge packets better and move faster.

With the speed of combat being what it is, you're better off with no physical armor. I do find it a tad silly that the best thing you can do as your character gets more powerful is ditch the armor you spent a decent amount of RL money acquiring for a tag that says you have invisible armor, especially since your costuming has probably suffered some while you spent money on armor. Physical armor either needs to give some benefit beyond (or instead of) armor points, or the rules on what each location is worth need to change to make it less of a handicap.
 

evi1r0n

Baron
tieran said:
TL;DR:
Average cost of event ~$50
30 pt armor ~$150
Too expensive how?
I am not 100% sure where you are shopping to get 30pt armor for $150. To get 30 point that fits me and looks good it would cost double that, unless I could take the raw materials and build the armor myself, which I don't have the skills or talent for. So yes it is a financial burden, that some of the players can't afford. It's nice to have disposable income but that shouldn't mean you get a leg up. Sure I could bolt some sheet metal to a leather jacket and make a really crappy max points armor (minus master craft and in genre) but that would take away from the good costume I was able to put together with the little disposable income I have. I play 3 different LARPs, the other ones are a lot cheaper to play than Alliance and I average around 12 events a year between them all.

So I could get some baseline armor for $300 but that means skipping around 5 events to do so. I would rather LARP then sit at home with my cool armor.

My costuming (since I don't wear armor) cost me about $200 to costume 6 characters for 3 LARPs and I did that over time.

Now I am all for encouraging real armor and more benefits for wearing it but our system isn't set up that way. Arcane Armor is a nice thing. It took me 6 months on plot to afford my AA and it allowed me to donate my time and get something that made the game playable and more fun for me.
 

Inaryn

Knight
I would absolutely wear real armor over arcane any day. The problem is that real armor is expensive and difficulty to obtain, especially for people with either a larger girth or larger bosom. There's no where that I can buy plate level armor for $150 and have it fit my chest. So if I want plate armor, I either have to dish out around $400 (I've checked) for it, or get arcane.

I'd rather spend that $400 on a good sewing machine and be able to keep making costuming for myself, other players, and our monster camp.

If the materials required to get that plate value were relaxed, I'd be able to acquire armor that looked decent and served the purpose for far less money... at which point I'd actually make that investment.

And armor *is* an investment. It's not gone when the character is, and it's often tailored to the person it's made for, making it unsuitable for re-use within a short period of time or incredibly difficult to resell.
 

markusdark

Knight
evi1r0n said:
Now I am all for encouraging real armor and more benefits for wearing it but our system isn't set up that way. Arcane Armor is a nice thing.
So maybe then we should look at ways to make AA affordable for everyone and thereby remove the area of the game that our system isn't set up for?

I'm serious. This is an old argument that has never bore any fruit - make armor more appealing to wear. The general LARPing attendees don't want to wear it. So remove it and find a way to make AA easier to aquire.

As for myself, I have an armored bandoleer that I'm working to rig it to fall off of me after it gets hit once since that first hit will usually blow through 15 points and make it utterly useless.
 

Talen

Adept
Inaryn said:
I would absolutely wear real armor over arcane any day. The problem is that real armor is expensive and difficulty to obtain, especially for people with either a larger girth or larger bosom. There's no where that I can buy plate level armor for $150 and have it fit my chest. So if I want plate armor, I either have to dish out around $400 (I've checked) for it, or get arcane.
Talking about wearing a full chestplate, right? What you'd probably want is a plackard like this one:



Then a gorget that extended down a bit, spaulders, etc. etc. and something more flexible to shield your chest-chest with, like light mail or just a padded gambeson. That plackard's about $40 US, btw.

I'd rather spend that $400 on a good sewing machine and be able to keep making costuming for myself, other players, and our monster camp.

If the materials required to get that plate value were relaxed, I'd be able to acquire armor that looked decent and served the purpose for far less money... at which point I'd actually make that investment.

And armor *is* an investment. It's not gone when the character is, and it's often tailored to the person it's made for, making it unsuitable for re-use within a short period of time or incredibly difficult to resell.
That's one of the reasons I'm fond of the stuff I found in Germany. They're used to building LARP-friendly armor, and in pieces rather than trying to sell you a full set (unless you want one, in which case it's cheaper).

Case in point, the lady on the left, although all of these folks are wearing storebought armor/helms:

 

Davion

Scholar
Talen said:
Talking about wearing a full chestplate, right? What you'd probably want is a plackard like this one:

Then a gorget that extended down a bit, spaulders, etc. etc. and something more flexible to shield your chest-chest with, like light mail or just a padded gambeson. That plackard's about $40 US, btw.
Are you trying to provide support to authenticity? If you are, that is not very authentic armor. See this. http://www.vg247.com/2011/12/16/armor-expert-expounds-on-womens-battle-armor/

I also highly doubt that plackard is $40, can you please provide the link? Shipping from Germany alone seems like it probably costs that much, combined with their 20% sales tax, and that they use the Euro, which is far stronger than the US $.
 

Inaryn

Knight
Talen said:
Inaryn said:
I would absolutely wear real armor over arcane any day. The problem is that real armor is expensive and difficulty to obtain, especially for people with either a larger girth or larger bosom. There's no where that I can buy plate level armor for $150 and have it fit my chest. So if I want plate armor, I either have to dish out around $400 (I've checked) for it, or get arcane.
Talking about wearing a full chestplate, right? What you'd probably want is a plackard like this one:



Then a gorget that extended down a bit, spaulders, etc. etc. and something more flexible to shield your chest-chest with, like light mail or just a padded gambeson. That plackard's about $40 US, btw.
Yeah... no. We're still not talking good enough. I wasn't kidding when I said I'd priced getting armor that would work for my chest. And I am, by far, not the largest chested lady playing this game.

The point here is that the armor system is not currently designed to be readily accessible to people without funds and particular body types. This is bad game design.
 
Just to throw it out there: why is it that there are people arguing in favor of realistic metal armor when literally not one single person is agitating in favor of realistic wood and steel shields?
 

RiddickDale

Squire
Moderator
Public Relations Committee
All this extra stuff comes down to the requirement of metal for high armor values.

The argument in its purest form is: metal armor vs non metal armor (that is aesthetically pleasing).

Arcane isnt the problem.

Can we focus the argument on that maybe? Because if people could get higher value armor points without resorting to heavy, expensive metal armor they would probably use that as opposed to arcane.

But, then, what are these arguments about? People trying to make the game look better? Or people trying to eke more value out of their heavy armor and shooting at arcane to do it?
 

Polare

Count
Alliance Rules
Moderator
Seattle Staff
SkollWolfrun said:
/sarcasm on
Yeah, I guess it 'sucks' that those nasty NPCs can roll around for a year or two, saving up gobbies so they can come into game with AA. They did 'nothing' to warrant that special treatment.
/sarcasm off

Maybe people need to be happy with what they have and if they want AA, work towards it.
Keep in mind that many chapters (if not the majority) do not allow gobbied AAs, or any gobbied rituals at all. That is often not an option for many players.

-Bryan
 

markusdark

Knight
Davion said:
Are you trying to provide support to authenticity? If you are, that is not very authentic armor.
Dan Nickname Beshers said:
Just to throw it out there: why is it that there are people arguing in favor of realistic metal armor when literally not one single person is agitating in favor of realistic wood and steel shields?
What's authentic about Mystic Wood Elves able to cure wounds with a packet of bird seed?

Authenticity is NOT a part of this game - or is a very, VERY small one. People will try to get armor that looks good and functions well but authenticity is not the order of things in Alliance.

Oh and as for the shields - because they can hurt people. And they're heavy. Yes, armor can do that, but you're holding your shield out towards people. I know, silly, but meh, there you go.
 

markusdark

Knight
RiddickDale said:
All this extra stuff comes down to the requirement of metal for high armor values.

The argument in its purest form is: metal armor vs non metal armor (that is aesthetically pleasing).

Arcane isnt the problem.
Arcane, at it's core, isn't the problem, true. The problem is that any armor (metallic or otherwise) doesn't offer the benefits to really mitigate the cost and comfort level.

I feel that the argument is more about the worth of the weight, cost and comfort level of the armor vs its use/functionality in game. The rules are set in such a way that if you want to have a high point suit, you have to have a heavy rig. And said rig will disappear (and then some) with a single dragon's breath (which is harder to dodge due to said weighty armor) or a three to five second engagement with someone swinging 10's. Granted, an Arcane Armor will disappear too but the armored individual now has an additional 20+ pounds to sweat in for the rest of the engagement.
 

Talen

Adept
Davion said:
Talen said:
Talking about wearing a full chestplate, right? What you'd probably want is a plackard like this one:

Then a gorget that extended down a bit, spaulders, etc. etc. and something more flexible to shield your chest-chest with, like light mail or just a padded gambeson. That plackard's about $40 US, btw.
Are you trying to provide support to authenticity? If you are, that is not very authentic armor. See this. http://www.vg247.com/2011/12/16/armor-expert-expounds-on-womens-battle-armor/
Not at all, especially in a system that has elves wandering around in soft leather and dryads in wood plates for armor. This is a LARP. Armor is a costuming choice, not something to shield you from a guy whacking you with rattan or a rebated steel sword.

I also highly doubt that plackard is $40, can you please provide the link? Shipping from Germany alone seems like it probably costs that much, combined with their 20% sales tax, and that they use the Euro, which is far stronger than the US $.
About 30 Euros, which translates to about US $40 at current exchange rates.

https://www.mytholon.com//product_info. ... 91efd15b3e

If they can do it over there for $40, I'd bet you could get an armorer to make something similar here for $40-50 or so, considering it's 19-20ga instead of the 14-16ga any US armorer is going to assume you want, because literally every one I've seen has been sitting there stating "SCA legal!" on their websites. And since it's lower torso armor and belted on the back, someone's upper torso size (male or female) isn't going to be an issue. Fact is, nearly anyone you ask over here is going to assume you wanted SCA-thickness armor anyway, because that's their big business.
 

Talen

Adept
Inaryn said:
Yeah... no. We're still not talking good enough. I wasn't kidding when I said I'd priced getting armor that would work for my chest. And I am, by far, not the largest chested lady playing this game.

The point here is that the armor system is not currently designed to be readily accessible to people without funds and particular body types. This is bad game design.
That armor, by it's very nature cannot restrict your chest, it goes around your belly. I'd agree with you that the armor system should center around costume armor vs. "real armor", it's not like we're giving people kudos for strapping on a real sword and whacking people with it. Why is that standard the "top dog" for the armor system? What gauge metal were you asking the armorer for a quote for? (A real-armor version of that would start around $100.)

Also, I'd sit here without missing a beat and saying "coat of plates". I've known ladies in the SCA of considerable size in the upper torso that can get into one of those just fine, though that's not plate-plate, it's brigandine and it's dirt cheap to make the LARP version, either with honest-to-goodness metal plates (nail plates, any big box hardware store) or rigid plastic (even cheaper and far lighter).

A real breastplate? THAT I can definitely see needing custom work, but plate-grade armor protection built for someone of large size? Absolutely doable and actually not really expensive, and most of the work is...well, sewing.

http://www.mediaevalmisc.com/pp-102.htm

There's the patterns. Medieval Misc. has been selling those for decades.
 

markusdark

Knight
Guys, she doesn't want the belly armor. She wants a full on chest plate. People have a vision of what they want their character to look like. Her's isn't wearing a full metal waist cincher. It's the same reason not everyone's costumes look the same.

Heck, someone in ASF made 'penny armor' where they basically sewed two tabards together with a chess board pattern and inserted a penny into each small pocket. This gives you a base 3 point armor per location. There's something cheap. Literally pennies to the area.
 

Warlok

Adept
Charlottesville Staff
markusdark said:
Guys, she doesn't want the belly armor. She wants a full on chest plate. People have a vision of what they want their character to look like. Her's isn't wearing a full metal waist cincher. It's the same reason not everyone's costumes look the same.

Heck, someone in ASF made 'penny armor' where they basically sewed two tabards together with a chess board pattern and inserted a penny into each small pocket. This gives you a base 3 point armor per location. There's something cheap. Literally pennies to the area.
Penny armor is 2 points per location, based on the materials that pennies are made of. This fact was pointed out by the creator of the armor to ensure that no unfair point value given to that type of armor. My gambeson, however, has metal plates and washers sewn into it in the same manner and does grant 3 points per location (upper legs and upper arms), but is considerably heavier. My gambeson was made for about $40 due to a barter that we worked out where I provided the steel.

-Luke
 

markusdark

Knight
Warlok said:
markusdark said:
Penny armor is 2 points per location, based on the materials that pennies are made of. This fact was pointed out by the creator of the armor to ensure that no unfair point value given to that type of armor. My gambeson, however, has metal plates and washers sewn into it in the same manner and does grant 3 points per location (upper legs and upper arms), but is considerably heavier. My gambeson was made for about $40 due to a barter that we worked out where I provided the steel.

-Luke
I suppose it's up to the interpretation of the marshal. To me, pennies aren't 'studs' if they're sewn into a pattern close enough. There is no definition in the rulebook on the dimensions of a plate that constitutes 'plate mail' - perhaps because there's no such thing as plate mail (Thank you Gygax for screwing THAT up for generations). Or actually, if anything is plate 'mail' (mail being flexible armor) it would be the penny armor. :) And copper is Heavy Metal according to the rules (granted, pennies are mostly zinc now but still...)

But that's just my interpretation. I'm apparently wrong. :D
 

KyleSchmelz

Fighter
Plated mail is a thing (I intend to make some someday), but D&D calling normal plate armor "plate mail" and including studded leather screwed up an entire generation of nerds on armor.
 

Durnic

Squire
Owner
Oregon Staff
Marshal
I think we've gotten a little off-topic as we are hardly discussing arcane armor any longer.

Let me try to bring this back around:

MaxIrons said:
I'll add my 2 Kroner..

It's as other people say, it's not that Arcane Armor is bad... it's that physical armor doesn't have enough upsides to counteract the very real OOG (cost / discomfort) and IG (mobility restriction) penalties that must accompany it. That coupled with the fact that mobility/cost/discomfort increases at a faster rate than the armor points the closer you get to 40, means it's actually punitive to wear heavy armor. The only hard armor I wear is a gorget, and let me tell you, after a weekend, that thing is a pain in my neck, literally. If I was to wear a full suit of plate I'd be out a heck of a lot of money for the armor, less able to dodge packets, less able to land blows, and just all around objectively worse at fighting than the guy who is wearing pants and shirt (admittedly nice pants and shirt) and a 30 point AA.

Your reasoning for why you chose AA over armor is legit, very legit, but it does bring to light that the real world trade-offs for physical armor make it objectively worse that physical armor most of the time.

If we allow greater racial abilities the more intense the makeup requirements are, shouldn't we do the same for our costuming (armor)?
I could not agree with what Max is saying here, especially the last line.

As it stands the benefits of AA is that you have all of your mobility but the downside if you can't go to the maximum of 40 armor with it. On the contrary, the pros and cons of physical armor are exactly the opposite.

In my mind the problem is that the extra 10 armor doesn't really do much since it's hard for characters to get there (or it seems that way to me since I'm still a lowbie). A fighter still has to have 5 levels of Wear Armor which means they need to learn it five separate times over five separate days. They must then acquire a suitable set of armor OOG which then has to be backed up by a tag that is bought IG. At level 8 I'm fighting creatures that are swinging for 13 or even 20, so that seems like a ton of extra work for another 10 points of armor that aren't even going to absorb one of those hits.

What if, instead, physical armor of 2-points or higher granted a single Weapon Guard-like (dumb defense, goes off after Magic Armor) ability in between repairs and 3-point armor gave two of those abilities? Combined with an actual Magic Armor for a total of three of them, it seems like a fighter in full plate/heavy chainmail would be considerably more durable then someone in lighter armor or while using AA but not to an unreasonable game-breaking amount. I wouldn't be opposed to this being a ritual scroll that is cast on a set of armor to make it have this effect. That would allow higher-level people who want to wear physical armor have a tangible in-game benefit to doing so without making things unbalanced at lower levels. Could call it Hardened Armor or something, who knows?

On a personal note, my friends and I spend a considerable amount of time in our garages making armor for us to wear (http://i.imgur.com/prt45pg.jpg) and I would love to see more people rolling with physical armor for the looks alone. This isn't to say that I hate AA and I want to see it removed or nerfed, I think it has a very good niche and is great for those people who want it, I just feel like heavy physical armor does not have IG benefits that outweigh the IG cons. As it is right now I rock a 25-point set of armor and I'm considering getting AA but still wearing the physical armor just because it looks so good and really adds to the game atmosphere.
 

tieran

Duke
Gettysburg Staff
Marshal
Just for the record, Wear Extra Armor (along with any other repeat purchase skill) only has to be taught once before it can be bought, not once per time you buy it.
 
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